# ProjectApollo Collaborative (Vessel Builder + Multistage)

#### Kyle

##### Armchair Astronaut
So I reviewed 4throck's Saturn IB and I honestly didn't see anything wrong as far as unit conversions go so I'm kind of baffled as to why it's underperforming.

As far as the LEM goes I'm satisfied that, barring some absolute path cleanup, it's done at least enough to complete missions before Apollo 15.

There's a pretty serious VB bug though that I've raised to Fred's attention before: Landed VB vessels don't jettison other VB vessels properly. The LEM ascent stage, for example, spawns on the ground under the descent engine rotated about 45 degrees from horizontal. EVAs do the same too.

Additionally, VB events based on altitude appear to be based on whatever SurfaceMFD is showing instead of the actual altitude from the lunar surface (OrbiterSound has the same problem too). I'm trying to trigger callouts & lunar dust being kicked up from the LEM descent engine based on altitude.

I'd strongly recommend against releasing this until Fred finds time to continue developing VB.

#### fred18

Donator
So I reviewed 4throck's Saturn IB and I honestly didn't see anything wrong as far as unit conversions go so I'm kind of baffled as to why it's underperforming.

maybe 4throck is using complex mode? just guessing, I have no idea why the performance could be so different

There's a pretty serious VB bug though that I've raised to Fred's attention before: Landed VB vessels don't jettison other VB vessels properly. The LEM ascent stage, for example, spawns on the ground under the descent engine rotated about 45 degrees from horizontal. EVAs do the same too.
TBH it is more an Orbiter bug, but I can see if I can find a work around.

Additionally, VB events based on altitude appear to be based on whatever SurfaceMFD is showing instead of the actual altitude from the lunar surface (OrbiterSound has the same problem too). I'm trying to trigger callouts & lunar dust being kicked up from the LEM descent engine based on altitude.
VB uses simply the oapi function GetAltitude() but it returns altitude above mean radius. I need to find a way to add a parameter in order to let the user set the reference (mean radius or actual ground).

#### Kyle

##### Armchair Astronaut
Thanks Fred! Re: Saturn IB I don't think it's something wrong with MS2015 because the Saturn V/CSM/LEM combo works perfectly. It might be something wrong with the publicly available figures.

#### 4throck

##### Enthusiast !
Thanks for the help!

I've checked complex mode and perturbations settings on Orbiter, and they do have an impact. Specially since the LEM is also running out of fuel 5 seconds before landing.

Do you guys have those options activated on Orbiter? I can't remember what's Orbiter default...

#### 4throck

##### Enthusiast !
Adding lights to the CSM and playing with with reflections.
Next step is parachutes... never did that on VesselBuilder, let's see how it goes!

#### Attachments

• csm.png
180.1 KB · Views: 48

#### Kyle

##### Armchair Astronaut
Thanks for the help!

I've checked complex mode and perturbations settings on Orbiter, and they do have an impact. Specially since the LEM is also running out of fuel 5 seconds before landing.

Do you guys have those options activated on Orbiter? I can't remember what's Orbiter default...

I don't but that would make sense. I'll give it a run.

#### 4throck

##### Enthusiast !
From my tests turning those parameters off is not enough for the Saturn Ib to work by the numbers.

So I've settled into using the parameters from 2010 Multistage Saturn Ib. The "by the numbers" figures are commented:

Code:
[STAGE_1]
Height=24.48
Diameter=6.52
EmptyMass=41594  ;38878
FuelMass=407084 ;411953
Thrust=8241630 ;7117155
BurnTime=143 ;150
.....

Code:
[STAGE_2]
Height=17.8
Diameter=6.61
EmptyMass=12900 ;12495
FuelMass=105900 ;105795
Thrust=1031600 ;924349
BurnTime=475 ;480
......

Interstage, LES, and fairing have their real weights.
I can get into orbit with about 5% of fuel to spare, under 10x acceleration.
That's good enough for me, and we have some margin for a heavier CSM.

====================

Here's an updated zip with the Saturn Ib launch situation. See if it works for you guys. Before you ask, I'm aware of the reversed adapter jettison

#### Attachments

• apollo_colaborative.zip
234.1 KB · Views: 22
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#### 4throck

##### Enthusiast !

I did progress with the CM reentry chutes, but unfortunately VB is rolling my work back when I reload the scenario. And it has rolled to many revisions back!
I now have a non working CMS.... Well I can restore it from the Zip but I lost two days of work...

I also get an error window: "VBVector Exception: called a vec position greater than the vector size! (type:struct EventSection:efinitions idx:5 sixe:5)"
The window can't be closed normally, I must do CTRL+ALT+DEL to close it.

Perhaps I'm abusing VB a bit, because I was editing the CM after separation from the SM, with both active on the same scenario.

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#### fred18

Donator
Well I can restore it from the Zip but I lost two days of work...

there should be the backup text file. in the Orbiter_root\Config\Vessels\VesselBuilder\ folder there should be a file txt name with the same name of the vessel with a "_BACKUPS.txt" end that should contain the whole history of the vessel, so even if you crashed there must be a more recent version saved there: it appends the new saves so nothing gets deleted, it is made to avoid this kind of issues. each Backup starts with a line of "===========" and then "BACKUP DATE: xxxxx"

Are you sure that you don't have anything there. It should be a pretty huge file because it starts in the instant you create the vessel but it is thought not to forget anything and to lose anything. Please check it

I also get an error window: "VBVector Exception: called a vec position greater than the vector size! (type:struct EventSection:efinitions idx:5 sixe:5)"
The window can't be closed normally, I must do CTRL+ALT+DEL to close it.

those can happen, that error is there trying to avoid CTD for innocent mistakes. They are tracked down somewhere... I can't remember if in the orbiter root folder in the VesselBuilder1.log file or in the VB1_Exception.log file... have a look of what do you have there

#### 4throck

##### Enthusiast !
Yes Fred, I need to dig through the backup

As before, this is no critique of VB. It's a warning for others that might face the same problems.
I was abusing the system a bit because I was editing both the Service Module AND the Command Module on the same scenario, after separations.

This is a big mistake, because an error somewhere might mess up all ships (by preventing a clean save).
So I'm now taking extra care to create separate, single ship, development scenarios

Right now the separated CM is reentering fine, with reconfigurations for textures and chutes. :thumbup:

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#### barrygolden

##### Active member
as you guys work on the S1 B launch, keep in mind that the SLA panels on the second stage just opened and didn't release. Apollo 5, Apollo 7 and all of the Skylab launches worked like that.

#### 4throck

##### Enthusiast !
Thanks for the notice. Right now they are being released. Must see what's the best option for multistage.

I've decided to add Skylab B to this, so the Saturn Ib is a priority.

#### 4throck

##### Enthusiast !
Here's the current work in progress. This is just to test the vessels, don't expect to be able to fly a mission yet
To simplify things, we now have only one generic CSM/LEM vessel version.

Jetisson the CM from the CSM by pressing B. You need to select the CM afterwards.
On reentry the CM switches to the burned texture and opens drogue chutes below a certain altitude.
This is based on Kyle's work, but I've changed reconfigurations a bit.

For the Saturn Ib the best solution is to have the SLA panels jettison.
On multistage there's no way to animate them, and we will need to dock with carried cargo there...
So the best option is just to get rid of them (for total accuracy we have NAASP)

#### Attachments

• apollo_colaborative2.zip
4.6 MB · Views: 28

#### Star Voyager

##### Space Shuttle Refugee
Not sure if this is relevant or not, but came across this looking for something else and thought it might be useful.

#### Kyle

##### Armchair Astronaut
I'll give the new CM a spin!

#### 4throck

##### Enthusiast !
Not sure if this is relevant or not, but came across this looking for something else and thought it might be useful

Certainly useful later on. Once the generic CSM is finished, we can use it as a base for more specific versions.

---------- Post added 25th Oct 2019 at 00:04 ---------- Previous post was 24th Oct 2019 at 23:59 ----------

I'll give the new CM a spin!
Not much difference, only on the Reconfiguration event.

#### Kyle

##### Armchair Astronaut
Do you think there's anyway we could improve visuals on the landing sites? Like maybe add some rocks, boulders, et cetera? Not sure how to do that in Orbiter 2016.

#### 4throck

##### Enthusiast !
You can add landed objects, using real moon coordinates. Rocks are fine, yet craters don't work because of terrain intersection.
But it's a lot of manual work...

The best solution would be for Orbiter or the graphic client to generate all this. The client already generates small craters and rocks up close. It could of course do it in 3D. That's how other games handle it and the best option...

#### 4throck

##### Enthusiast !
OK, since we now have AMSO 2016, I've shifted my efforts into using it.
So here's a multistage Saturn Ib with the AMSO CSM. As in 2010, the SM's antenna is open at liftoff.

The Saturn Ib is the same as before, using NASSP meshes and tower, with tweaked adaptor meshes for compatibility with MS2015.

Hope it works :thumbup:

#### Attachments

• saturn1b_amso_nassp.zip
20.9 KB · Views: 162