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Old 01-31-2009, 03:04 AM   #106
Piper
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Last chance for anyone still working on either of the challenges, if there isn't anybody still working on them, I'll began the third challenge.
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Old 01-31-2009, 03:31 AM   #107
atuhalpa
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Ceres orbit with a hall thruster sounds good. BTW Ceres is at opposition on February 25th @ 9 AM EST.
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Old 01-31-2009, 03:35 AM   #108
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Third challenge! I can't wait.

As for suggestions, I remember taking a trip to 216 Kleopatra (from the Asteroid Pack addon) about a year ago, but using a Deltaglider with unlimited fuel. I would be interested in a challenge that involved that main belt asteroid and one of the Chapman probes.
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Old 01-31-2009, 06:08 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper View Post
 Speaking of the next challenges, does anybody have any recomendations? I have some of my own ideas, but I would love to hear some other ones.
How about a challenge of sending the Chapman to do a flyby of as many planets as possible? Start from any reasonable transfer burn from Earth to any starting planet, the only requirement would be to only use the Chapman engines after that initial transfer burn. The reason I suggest going to the planets is that, try as I might, I still have no clue how to add additional rocks.
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Old 01-31-2009, 11:17 PM   #110
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Flytandem, did you try installing Piper's Trojans zip pack?
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:03 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atuhalpa View Post
 Flytandem, did you try installing Piper's Trojans zip pack?
I've spent at least 5 separate 1 hour periods trying to get anything related to this series of challenges to run. Just now I once again started with a vanilla Orbiter package and thought I followed all instructions regarding getting a chapman probe to run yet still it does a ctd an all scenarios. I also have tried to make sense of that app to install asteroids but it won't respond and I must start task manager to shut that app down. Regarding the probe ... perhaps files aren't in their correct folder but it's way beyond me. The base package runs fine and there are plenty of challenging tasks just using the deltaglider on low fuel. To me what actual craft is being navigated is arbitrary. The challenge is navigating. And if the destinations aren't being seen there's no way to navigate to them.
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:30 AM   #112
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I, for one, really appreciate all the navigational insight you've brought to this thread, Flytandem. So if you want to have another go at getting some of the launchers and probes working I'm sure we can all try to help.

I know that when I wanted to use the Atlas V it needed LC41 which was developed for an older version of orbiter. I had to change the configurations because I too was getting CTDs (hence why I never managed to get the first challenge done). But I figured out how to get LC41 working on my system. I think a lot of the pre-fab scenarios launch from LC41 so that could be a source of your problems. I'd be happy to post what I did to get it all working if you think it might help.

-- Mike
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Old 02-01-2009, 03:13 AM   #113
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Here's a question. Would it be possible to start a scenario using a stock deltaglider just to get a low earth orbit and transfer burn completed and do a save just after the burn in done. Then edit the scenario to change the deltaglider into a chapman probe and do the remaining flight and mid course corrections using the probe? Basically, forego the hassles of setting up the staged rockets. I tried to do this a bit ago and even this failed miserably. Maybe it's not even possible. I've done this in the past switching a deltagliderIV into a deltaglider just to make spacecraft operation simpler so I can concentrate more on navigation.

A navigational challenge I am currently playing with would be to start Earth some time between late 60s and early 70's to do 1 transfer burn that slings Venus with an energy losing sling, then does a fly-by at Mercury then with energy boosting slings uses Venus, Earth and Mars to be in place to hit Jupiter for the Voyager tour. I know it must be possible, it's just a matter of finding it. Like finding a gold nugget in a stream. Once found it would be a single burn that does a flyby at ALL the planets using only minimal DV along the way.

edit: so far I have Jan 1971 depart, to Venus, Mercury, Venus, Venus, Venus, Earth, Mars, Earth and it takes me out past Jupiter orbit in the correct place where Jupiter would be for the voyager mission through outer planets but... arrived 2 years too late at Jupiter orbit so Jupiter is out of phase,.. ugh. Either need to start in 1969 with similar slings or make slings more energetic to reduce number of slings.

Last edited by flytandem; 02-01-2009 at 04:14 AM. Reason: adding data on slings
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Old 02-01-2009, 04:10 AM   #114
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Flytandem, do you have a prefered real world launch platform?
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Old 02-01-2009, 04:26 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atuhalpa View Post
 Flytandem, do you have a prefered real world launch platform?
No. Actually the letters NA might answer the question more appropriately.
I prefer to use a real world dv budget to plan missions, but simplify the actual execution of the mission by using a stock deltaglider with reduced fuel. For example, after reaching LEO I usually try to have an entire transfer and MCC dv well under 5K m/s. If there were a simpler craft than the stock DG that's what I would use. To me the power of Orbiter is not in craft creation but rather in navigational creativity. There are a lot of free rides out there for the taking.
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Old 02-01-2009, 01:55 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flytandem View Post
 No. Actually the letters NA might answer the question more appropriately.
I prefer to use a real world dv budget to plan missions, but simplify the actual execution of the mission by using a stock deltaglider with reduced fuel. For example, after reaching LEO I usually try to have an entire transfer and MCC dv well under 5K m/s. If there were a simpler craft than the stock DG that's what I would use. To me the power of Orbiter is not in craft creation but rather in navigational creativity. There are a lot of free rides out there for the taking.
Sorry, but I don't want people using a stock Deltaglider, since it isn't just about dV. Using a Deltaglider would take away the difficulty of launching with a real-world launcher, and the deltaglider has much different thrust characteristics then a Chapman probe.

When you unzip the files for the chapman probe, do all the files end up in a single folder, or do they go into seperate ones?
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Old 02-01-2009, 04:42 PM   #117
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Flytandem, if you had had a launch platform that you preferred I was going to create an orbiter install that had your preferred platform and all the trojans and the chapmans and everything that was required and that ran just perfectly on my machine and then burn it to disc and send it to you. That might fix the problem?!?!
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Old 02-01-2009, 05:37 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by atuhalpa View Post
 Flytandem, if you had had a launch platform that you preferred I was going to create an orbiter install that had your preferred platform and all the trojans and the chapmans and everything that was required and that ran just perfectly on my machine and then burn it to disc and send it to you. That might fix the problem?!?!
Wow. That's a very generous offer. Since I know nothing about launch platforms (I usually hit control + to begin rolling and * for meco) if you want to do it that would be appreciated. So it's your call on which platform. Simple is good however.

The latest effort to get an enhanced grand tour flightplan with slings off all planets has me going from completing inner planets finally slinging Earth toward Jupiter, but it hits Earth at the Earth/Jupiter window 13 months after the famed summer '77 voyager window. The fun thing about this stuff is that such a miss is so huge that it means starting all over with a completely new launch date. To me this is pure fun not frustration. Having a pile of files that are perhaps all in the wrong place is what is frustrating.

my www.flytandem.com website has my mailing address on the contact page if you are still keen on sending me a disk.

thanks
rob


-----Post Added-----


Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper View Post
 Sorry, but I don't want people using a stock Deltaglider, since it isn't just about dV. Using a Deltaglider would take away the difficulty of launching with a real-world launcher, and the deltaglider has much different thrust characteristics then a Chapman probe.

When you unzip the files for the chapman probe, do all the files end up in a single folder, or do they go into seperate ones?
The files are in separate folders. Winzip has a checkmark to use folder structure. Files in the wrong place is just a guess on my part. I've no idea why it won't run. Plus getting that app to run to install asteroids is a consistent lockup of the system and there's no response to the program at all, needing task manager to terminate the app. Maybe it's a Vista thing.

I admit that getting an addon launcher to run is a challenge. It's a challenge in how to arrange and edit configuration files but has nothing to do with how current real world rockets are launched. However, basic flight planning is using orbital mechanics the same as (though less precise than) real world space flight. Isn't this the real challenge of Orbiter?

Once the files are correctly in place, or whatever is needed to allow the sim to run, is the rocket launch done completely manually or is it automated to some extent like I've seen on the Apollo AMSO addon? Is an automated launch a challenge? What acceleration does the Chapman Probe have BTW? I assume it has some sort of on-board thrust and a way to rotate itself. And how much DV? Since the DG is completely manually flown and when using TransX for guidance it is manually oriented for all burns. Isn't this a challenge?

Actually, if there were a craft that had no visible shape at all, just a glass cockpit, to be able to fire up a couple of copies of TransX, with a little bit of ROT fuel and a way to thrust it would 100% satisfy me.
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Old 02-01-2009, 07:25 PM   #119
atuhalpa
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Ok, I'll set up a Delta 4HV with a fregat and chapman probe. It will be a CVEL platform and I'll set up a scenario template that you can modify easily for MJD, launch location, and specific chapman probe.

I like to launch manually. I have been using the D4HV long enough now that I can get into LEO at 220km with less than .5 degrees Rinc and still have 95% fuel left in the earth eject stage. Just remember that the eject stage is cryogenically cooled and if you don't use your fuel you lose it soon after ejection.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:44 AM   #120
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Thanks Atuhalpa.
BTW I just managed to find a solution to an enhanced grand tour. It's a voyager outer planet finish but starts several years earlier with inner planet slings so it visits ALL planets. It has an almost identical initial transfer burn as the Voyager missions, which is pretty energetic considering it's only heading to Venus but it does the trick.

In planning it, after several inner slings TransX was becoming unstable so I did a little trick that's sometimes needed... the Cl App was wandering around at the 41696 Venus encounter (see data below) leaving me unable to adjust slings after that encounter, so when it was close I looked at the date and encounter velocity and then turned off inherit velocity and entered the date and velocity manually. Then it stabilized and allowed continuing sling planning to what ultimately was a 25 stage flightplan. Data is as follows...

Depart Earth Jan 16, 1968, MJD=39871.6808, Pro=-7.903Km, Out=-3.887Km, PlaneCh=-714.5m
Slings with MJD dates are as follows...
Venus 40000
Mercury 40212
Mercury 40476
Venus 41349
Mars 41522
Venus 41696
Venus 42237
Earth 43297
Jupiter 44126
Saturn 44952
Uranus 46687
Neptune 48097
...

The reason I searched this sling cascade is that this thread is about real world sims and using a craft that supposed to be limited to current day technology. Yes this flight is an after the fact "what if" but it's not unreasonable to say "what if the voyager planetary alignment concept had been noticed earlier" and was set up to include an inner planet enhancement of which this is just an example. In any event it would surely be a challenge to fly this mission no matter what craft you use. The goal would be to limit the total MCC corrections to a minimum because there are probably going to be quite a few with 12 slings on the menu. To sim real life it would just need a craft that can handle 22 years of exposure to the space environment. Since the Voyager is still with a pulse (i think) I suppose that's within real life too.


-----Post Added-----


I just flew the enhanced Voyager mission and have some observations to make. The dates mentioned above are fairly accurate with regard to the inner planets but it actually came closer to the real Voyager mission than predicted for the outer planets. The arrival dates at each planet are as follows...
Venus 40000 (as predicted)
Mercury 40212 (as predicted)
Mercury 40476 (as predicted)
Venus 41349 (as predicted)
Mars 41518 (4 days ahead of plan)
Venus 41696 (as predicted)
Venus 42237 (as predicted)
Earth 43297 (as predicted)
Jupiter 44046 (in between the two Voyager missions)
Saturn 44952 (in between the two Voyager missions)
Uranus 46416 (6 weeks ahead of the Voyager mission)
Neptune 47715 (3 weeks ahead of the Voyager mission)

The mission was completely free coasting with no deep space maneuvers but there were on average something like 25 m/s per sling corrections for the inner planets and about 55 m/s per sling for the outer planet planet slings. The total dv used for all slings from the initial transfer from Earth to passing Neptune was 405 m/s. Not bad for 12 slings in all. The initial transfer burn was 6336 m/s from LEO.
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