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View Poll Results: Does Global Warming Exist?
Yes GW exists, and is a problem. 43 64.18%
Yes GW exists, and is not a problem 13 19.40%
No GW does not exist. 11 16.42%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-18-2008, 03:04 PM   #31
ar81
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Originally Posted by ryan View Post
 Global warming or not, we need to take care of our planet cant just polute it stop the factorys giving out of that stuff.
The planet can live without us.
A raise of 2 degrees could destroy world agriculture forever.
That's not a big problem, unless you need food.

It is already destroying wood industry in Canada, for even if they plant more trees, global warming is killing them.

With complete sea level raise, Miami would be 50 miles from the coast.
It is not a big problem, except if you live in Miami.

India and China are creating a toxic cloud of pollution that is seen from space, BBC reported a few days ago, and it will reach California coast very soon. Not a problem if you do not care about toxicity and a hazy day.
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Old 11-18-2008, 03:09 PM   #32
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Hey, full sea level rise also has advantages: No more dutch caravans in front of my car on the highway.

And my home would be at the coast, with better temperatures...
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Old 11-18-2008, 03:58 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Urwumpe View Post
 Hey, full sea level rise also has advantages: No more dutch caravans in front of my car on the highway.

And my home would be at the coast, with better temperatures...
... and miles and miles of dutch caravan settlements.
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Old 11-18-2008, 04:06 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by pete.dakota View Post
 If the mean temperature change around the globe is 100% natural, and would be occurring whether or not humans were industrious or not, then, yeah, it's not a problem.
The Earth actually has no mean temperature. It's a man-made average value, an "index" of different measurements.

The Earth is not in a thermodynamic balance. Also, to understand the climate at least a little bit, we need way more than just a single average value.

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Originally Posted by pete.dakota View Post
 The issue exists because there is strong evidence which suggests the anomaly increase is being accelerated by man-made CO2 emissions.
Well, there is no strong evidence really, but a lot of guesswork.
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Old 11-18-2008, 04:12 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Urwumpe View Post
 Hey, full sea level rise also has advantages: No more dutch caravans in front of my car on the highway.
On the contrary: We will invade Germany to claim some Lebensraum.

(OK, that was about the limit of being funny. We're still talking about a hypothetical situation right? At least, something in the far future...)

And about an acceptable temperature: I'd say everything in the last 5000 years is more or less acceptable. But CO2 levels have never been as high as now since the time of the dinosaurs...
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Old 11-18-2008, 04:20 PM   #36
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 CO2 levels have never been as high as now since the time of the dinosaurs...
Where did you get that information from?
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Old 11-18-2008, 04:38 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Moonwalker View Post
 Where did you get that information from?
I got it from an article in a high-quality dutch newspaper, several months ago. I looked it up on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_...ical_variation
Quote:
Present carbon dioxide levels are likely higher now than at any time during the past 20 myr[16] and certainly higher than in the last 800,000. It must be noted that although CO2 concentrations have been significantly higher in the distant past than they are today, the energy output of the sun has also steadily increased over the same period.
Wikipedia links to this IPCC page.
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Old 11-18-2008, 04:59 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by cjp View Post
 I got it from an article in a high-quality dutch newspaper, several months ago. I looked it up on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_...ical_variation
Wikipedia links to this IPCC page.
Well, the dinosaur existed until about 65 million years ago

But anyway, the data we get from relatively young local core records is not rather reliable when talking about a global climate millions of years ago.
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Old 11-18-2008, 05:20 PM   #39
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I like to think of Global Warming as yet another test for humanity. Are we smart enough as a species to do something about it in time, if there is something we can indeed, do? While trying to live our lives here, etc.?

Fortunately enough people these days are concerned about the possibilities. Better than total ignorance.
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Old 11-18-2008, 05:32 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Omhra View Post
 ...

No one knows the "perfect temperature" but we have a good idea of the temperatures that trigger extinctions in massive scale.
...
Anti-technology solutions are what are most commonly given for reducing carbon emissions ... they just haven't reached this forum yet ... also odd how man-made carbon gets the blame when man-made carbon emissions are but a fraction of the total ... don't volcanoes emit much more carbon than man?

Nobody knows what the 'perfect' temp is ... but everyone knows that the current temp is 'wrong' ... ooooooookay ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omhra View Post
 No one has said that, ... and if you could keep it out of the political it would be nice too...
...
You're right ... I won't post any more questions or comments on this subject ... I should have known better than to step into a religious discussion.
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Old 11-18-2008, 05:54 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Moonwalker View Post
 Well, there is no strong evidence really, but a lot of guesswork.
The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change:

Quote:
Originally Posted by IPCC
 "An increasing body of observations gives a collective picture of a warming world and other changes in the climate system... There is new and stronger evidence that most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities."
It isn't guess work. There is very strong, backed, and government-endorsed/recognised evidence.


-----Post Added-----


A read-worthy NY Times article on the matter. Note it's from 2003, and scientific opinion on climate change has not altered from the premise laid out in the article.
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:17 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
 Nobody knows what the 'perfect' temp is ... but everyone knows that the current temp is 'wrong' ... ooooooookay ...

I think your looking at the 'perfect temp' differently. Since there is no such thing as a 'perfect temp' because of so many variables, there is however a prefect range... and that range is where we are right now.




This picture (from NASA) shows the relative temperature from 1951. You can see from the graph, that not only has the temperature been going up but its rate that its going up has also been going up.
Now, if the rate would suddenly start decreasing and slowly have a negative rate or 0 deg C/year then I wouldn't worry at all, because its just part of earths climate.


On the note of Carbon Dioxide emissions;

I found this document from the ESRL GMD at Mauna Lou that shows that the rate of Co2 increase is increasing.

I am wondering at what point does the rate of Co2 output equal or exceed the rate of Co2 absorption from natural 'cleaning' (e.g. photosynthesis?)
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:33 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Moonwalker View Post
 Well, the dinosaur existed until about 65 million years ago

But anyway, the data we get from relatively young local core records is not rather reliable when talking about a global climate millions of years ago.
And what does that now change?

We talk about 850,000 years of numerically accurate data (which means: Errors and error sources are identified and included into the report).

That time period includes even two full 400,000 year Milankovitch cycles - the longest of all cyclic orbit changes on Earth.

The call for new data gets absurd, when you can't tell, why you need more data. What do you expect from knowing how the climate was, let's say 250 million years ago? Will this data be completely contrary to the 850,000 years and invalidate any climate model created from it? Sure not. It will add new aspects to it, but it won't invalidate the existing knowledge, gained by the scientific method.


-----Post Added-----


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bj View Post
 I am wondering at what point does the rate of Co2 output equal or exceed the rate of Co2 absorption from natural 'cleaning' (e.g. photosynthesis?)
If the amount of CO2 constantly increases during the course of many decades, it exceeds the CO2 absorption already. You can see in the more accurate plots how the CO2 drops during spring/summer and increases during the autumn/winter. But the drop is never as large as the previous increase.
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:37 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
  don't volcanoes emit much more carbon than man?
No. From an IPCC .pdf:

Quote:
...find that the models simulated a positive NAM response to
the volcanoes, albeit one that was smaller than that observed.
Nevertheless, ozone, solar and volcanic forcing changes are
generally not found to have made a large contribution to the
observed NAM trend over recent decades.
Also, read the first, bolded paragraph of this .pdf from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences:

Quote:
Despite the direct response of the model to solar forcing, even large solar
irradiance change combined with realistic volcanic forcing over
past centuries could not explain the late 20th century warming
without inclusion of greenhouse gas forcing. Although solar and
volcanic effects appear to dominate most of the slow climate
variations within the past thousand years, the impacts of greenhouse
gases have dominated since the second half of the last
century.
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:46 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bj View Post
 I am wondering at what point does the rate of Co2 output equal or exceed the rate of Co2 absorption from natural 'cleaning' (e.g. photosynthesis?)
There is no simple answer to that question. If you think about a simplified model, where nature is a self-stabilizing system with an equilibrium state, then adding an extra emission factor will shift the equilibrium a bit upwards. If the stabilizing factors are strong, then even a large extra emission will shift the equilibrium only a little bit.

But nature itself is constantly changing: there is no clear, stable equilibrium. That's also what makes interpreting these climate graphs so complicated. Maybe one year you have 100 units emitted by nature, 1 unit emitted by people and 90 units absorbed by nature, and another year you may have 90 units emitted by nature, 1 unit emitted by people and 100 units absorbed by nature.
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