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Old 03-04-2017, 07:59 PM   #76
Andy44
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Have to admit, though, the Alaska class was a classical beauty looks-wise.
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Old 03-05-2017, 05:18 PM   #77
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Yeah surely beautiful ships.
They had to be also comfortable: larger than some battleships (they was twenty meters longer than the North Carolina class!), with a simple armor scheme that takes little room, and with good nautical properties.

But also ships as the South Dakota appears with a very modern look. They was only a little stubby because of the short hull.

---------- Post added 03-05-17 at 05:18 PM ---------- Previous post was 03-04-17 at 08:33 PM ----------

Here, a comparison between famous battleship classes, to declare the "champion".

http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

So bad that my favourite, the North Carolina class, is not featured, but the South Dakota is there, and the two classes are not so different. The outcome is not so surprising regarding the winners (Iowa and SoDak classes), but an odd result is that Richelieu is considered far better than anything else in the European theatre (Bismarck included, obviously). What do you think?

Last edited by K_Jameson; 03-05-2017 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 03-05-2017, 05:34 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_Jameson View Post
 
Here, a comparison between famous battleship classes, to declare the "champion".

http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

So bad that my favourite, the North Carolina class, is not featured, but the South Dakota is there, and the two classes are not so different. The outcome is not so surprising regarding the winners (Iowa and SoDak classes), but an odd result is that Richelieu is considered far better than anything else in the European theatre (Bismarck included, obviously). What do you think?
As US friendly as a Tom Clancy novel.

Especially the bad rating in armor protection for the Bismarck shows that the guys didn't really want to be serious.
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Old 03-05-2017, 05:59 PM   #79
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Although not a great fan of the Iowa, I find difficult to contest that her and SoDaks was the best of the lot. And with a considerable margin.

A Yamato with better damage control, guns control and radar (and a less idiotic way of use) could have been the best of all, but history talks differently.

Yeah probably regarding Bismarck the guy was severe. But that armor was not so thick, even in respect to the previous Scharnhorst class. In fact, you can barely define it "all or nothing".
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Old 03-05-2017, 06:37 PM   #80
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 Yeah probably regarding Bismarck the guy was severe. But that armor was not so thick, even in respect to the previous Scharnhorst class. In fact, you can barely define it "all or nothing".
Doesn't matter. What matters is: Does it work? And it sure overperformed.
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Old 03-05-2017, 07:54 PM   #81
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You aren't the guy that declared her performances "not so impressive"?

It performed really well, but don't forget that in a matter of minutes the main guns of the ship were knocked out. The armor on the main turrets was far from top category. And after half an hour the ship could no longer return fire. At that point, doesn't matter if you're still afloat: you're doomed.

Last edited by K_Jameson; 03-05-2017 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 03-05-2017, 08:28 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by K_Jameson View Post
 You aren't the guy that declared her performances "not so impressive"?

It performed really well, but don't forget that in a matter of minutes the main guns of the ship were knocked out. The armor on the main turrets was far from top category. And after half an hour the ship could no longer return fire. At that point, doesn't matter if you're still afloat: you're doomed.
Well, the important aspect I mean about this: It was a sitting duck, the easiest of all targets. But even if it was shot unable to continue fighting, it still existed. How would it have fared without the lucky hit at the rudder? This achilles heel can doom any battleship.
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Old 03-05-2017, 08:59 PM   #83
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 How would it have fared without the lucky hit at the rudder?
Luck was not a prerogative of the sole Royal Navy during the hunt. If Bismarck had not been so lucky against Hood, her cruise could have been even shorter.

Alone and without air coverage I don't see a big survival chance for the battleship, even without the damage at the rudder.
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Old 03-05-2017, 09:43 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by K_Jameson View Post
 Luck was not a prerogative of the sole Royal Navy during the hunt. If Bismarck had not been so lucky against Hood, her cruise could have been even shorter.

Alone and without air coverage I don't see a big survival chance for the battleship, even without the damage at the rudder.
The air coverage yes, that was Göring at his best. Promising a lot he couldn't keep.

But still, I think that the Battle of the Denmark Straight was no battle the British could win without the Germans helping them. That Lütjens nearly ruined the day with his sticking to the orders to avoid battles, should not be forgotten there.

In a perfect world, the British should have won. But in reality, it was a large battle cruiser with experienced crew and inadequate armor and a battleship with huge mechanical problems and an unexperienced crew. Without the Hood, the Prince of Wales had to retreat and did exactly that.

And then, the Germans managed to ruin the British battle plan and turned it against the British. Instead of appearing in a position that was favorable for the British, the German ships had the sun in the back, making optical rangefingers highly ineffective.

I doubt the Hood could have fired more than two salvoes more before getting a hit into its WW1 era magazines. The German gunnery was based on the experiences from WW1 and very effective. The British needed much longer to get a firing solution.

And the Bismarck was likely the only German ship around, that would not have tried to evade battle at all costs to the point of finally getting shot.
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Old 03-05-2017, 10:19 PM   #85
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The luck against the Hood was not to defeat her, but to defeat her so easily . If the battle lasted more time, the PoW (or the Hood itself, that was still armed with the superb 381 mm guns) could have inflict more damage, rendering even more difficult the subseguent leg of the hunt for the german battleship.
The rupture of a magazine is a not so easy event (here the luck comes into play), especially if we consider that the Bismarck batteries haven't all these wonderful penetration capabilities and the geometry of the impact seems unfavourable at the penetration of the deck armor.

A more trivial question: which looks better? Bismarck or Hood?
I go for the Hood

Last edited by K_Jameson; 03-05-2017 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 03-05-2017, 11:16 PM   #86
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 The rupture of a magazine is a not so easy event (here the luck comes into play), especially if we consider that the Bismarck batteries haven't all these wonderful penetration capabilities and the geometry of the impact seems unfavourable at the penetration of the deck armor.
Its a British warship design from WW1, without any lessons learned from Jutland. It was an absolutely easy event. That is the way how British warships of that era died. A single hit close enough to a magazine is enough to cause a magazine explosion.

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 A more trivial question: which looks better? Bismarck or Hood?
I go for the Hood
Clearly the Hood.
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Old 03-06-2017, 01:26 AM   #87
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 Its a British warship design from WW1, without any lessons learned from Jutland. It was an absolutely easy event. That is the way how British warships of that era died. A single hit close enough to a magazine is enough to cause a magazine explosion.
Yes, but most of the British battlecruisers made it through Jutland (9 BCs, 3 lost, and one incredibly close call), so even taking the raw numbers from Jutland as the absolute probability for a battlecruiser to suffer a direct magazine hit or a turret fire that flashes back to a magazine, the odds of Bismark causing a magazine explosion aboard Hood at all during the engagement, let alone early on, were around 1 in 3. If you take into account other engagements like Dogger Bank, and the fact that Hood *had* had her armor scheme improved after Jutland, the probability is even lower. In the context of a Jutland-scale fleet battle, or a series of Denmark Strait type engagements of small forces it was likely still unacceptably high, but for Hood to suffer a magazine explosion at *that* point in *that* battle was undeniably a fluke. The British had not done enough to make their own luck in terms of armor and propellant handling and particularly in propellant composition*, but the odds were still in Hood's favor to survive a single engagement. And if Hood had survived Denmark Strait, or had blown up later in the engagement, it would have put Bismarck in an even worse position.

*Just on propellant composition, it's likely that Seydlitz would have been lost both at Dogger Bank and Jutland if she had been using British propellant. It's also likely that pretty much any other nation's propellant would have save some or all of the British battlecruisers lost at Jutland and Denmark Strait. Cordite was horribly dangerous, and on that count the British didn't learn at all.
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Old 03-06-2017, 07:14 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linguofreak View Post
 the odds were still in Hood's favor to survive a single engagement.
I agree. Probably defeated, but still afloat.
Or sunk, but not so fast and not before give some punch.
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:37 AM   #89
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 If you take into account other engagements like Dogger Bank, and the fact that Hood *had* had her armor scheme improved after Jutland, the probability is even lower.
Well, exactly that construction history is what makes me think that the Hood was doomed in that battle. First of all, her construction was changed after Jutland, but only inconsequential. Her front magazines had their order swapped to the standard of WW2, with the powder handling room below the shell room. But the aft magazines did not get upgraded. Then the front deck armor was upgraded, but the WW1 era misconceptions in deck armor design had not been corrected. And the aft deck armor did not get upgraded at all.

Now, in WW1, the deck armor was flawed, but not yet bad. But in WW2 with against modern shells with delayed aft fuze, this design was not just flawed, it was deadly.

So, once the aft deck armor got exposed directly to 10.5° fire, a very large cross section of vulnerable, not upgraded armor got exposed. Even if the Germans did not know of this weakness and did not try to intentionally exploit it: There had been eight shells in a salvo, the Germans had already a firing solution, so you can be sure a good portion of those eight shells will find the Hood - at least one, maybe even three.

That the Hood was hit at its Achilles Heel on the first salvo fired after the Hood started to turn was maybe luck. But 27 seconds later, the next salvo would have had an even better chance to hit it. Not the Bismarck needed to be lucky, the Hood needed it. And the Hood had no luck.

Would the Hood have received a consequent construction and armor upgrade, history would likely have been different. But it wasn't. The armor would have been vulnerable to plunging fire, but at the distances of the battle of the Denmark Strait, the shells would have arrived at a too shallow angle to be especially dangerous. It could have last much longer. The Germans considered the optimal combat distance for the Bismarck class at about 20 km, this battle was at nearly half the distance, also thanks to Lütjen for refusing to give order to open fire.

Also: The wreckage shows that the Hood was not just dying of one magazine explosion, but multiple. The big one broke its back, but the Cordite was not done yet.

Last edited by Urwumpe; 03-06-2017 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:37 PM   #90
Graham2001
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I am not sure if this fits but there is a long list of fictional warships that includes many fictional battleships which I will link to below:

Shipbucket: List of Fictional Warships.

The link goes to the start of the list (Fictional Warships 1850-1899).
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