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Old 03-13-2018, 07:13 AM   #16
Thorsten
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Wow. I need longer than that just to get one kid into normal everyday clothes...
Medieval is easier because they actually want to wear them pretty badly... even for everyday play.
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:49 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Loru View Post
 Are you serious?
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Originally Posted by jedidia View Post
 What just happened? This feels more like a youtube comment section than OF all of a sudden
Yes, I'm serious and I have right to my opinion no matter how many dislikes I'd get for it.

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Originally Posted by Thorsten View Post
 Hm, does the concept of fiction mean anything to you?
It does and I hate it.
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Originally Posted by Thorsten View Post
 It means it's basically made up - an author doesn't have to endorse the things he writes about - Steven King isn't urging all of us to become psychopaths either.
Not so fast. Just read this article as the most prominent example of what fiction does to masses' minds. If you want to add Steven King into the mix, then I'm fine with it.

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 Matrix films blamed for series of murders by obsessed fans
If you've ever worked with data mining or machine learning or you simply have children or pet, you won't deny, that given enough one-sided input, you can force the subject into working in an unusual way. If you do deny it, than it means that the concept of propaganda doesn't mean anything to you on the other hand.
To be honest, your fiction will rather not cause anybody to open fire, but it does manipulate the mind into thinking that magic works. And this is exactly what your disliked scientist Dawkins has been about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enemies_of_Reason
So to Loru as well: as you can see there are also other people who do take it seriously.
The job of a scientist is to make people think logically and reasonably. Not to "decolonize science".

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 Also, I have to nit-pick that there's no black magic appearing - what's depicted is nature magic.
Let it be.

Last edited by Enjo; 03-13-2018 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 03-13-2018, 12:23 PM   #18
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Just read this article as the most prominent example of what fiction does to masses' minds.
Quoting from that very article:

The local prosecutor, Robert Horan, said: "I don't think the movie causes violence. Millions and millions of people have seen it and not killed anybody."

So the article cites five (!) cases of people with pre-existing psychical problems who might have been influenced by the Matrix movie.

The movie made some 460 million US$ at the box office, so boldly assuming that admission back then was perhaps 10$, some 46 million people have been exposed to it, out of which 5 (a whopping fraction of 1.08e-6 ) might have gone violent because of it.

Coming from someone who proposes to uphold science, that's not really compelling and not even resembling a causal link - it's called anecdotal evidence - if numbers are large enough, you'll always find a handful of really weird stories. if that's 'the most prominent example' you can come up with, then there's really no reason to sweat it.

On the other hand, here you can read about scientists like chemist Fritz Haber being instrumental in killing some 90.000 and injuring another 1.3 million people - in a direct causal link. Just for comparison...

We could also briefly talk about the role of scientists claiming in the past that some races (notably African) are intellectually inferior - and what the result of that particular bit of science has been and how 'beneficial' that turned out for Africa. The problem here was precisely that it wasn't a bit of fiction - because it was 'science' they claimed it was all real. See - that's far more problematic than stating up-front that it's made up.

So if you really want to be afraid of someone, better be afraid of the scientists rather than the creators of fiction - they've killed and maimed far more people in this planet's history.

Last edited by Thorsten; 03-13-2018 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 03-13-2018, 01:17 PM   #19
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If you've ever worked with data mining or machine learning or you simply have children or pet, you won't deny, that given enough one-sided input, you can force the subject into working in an unusual way.
Yes. That's why you don't let the input get one-sided. Being well familiar with the concept of fiction is a great protection against falling victim to propaganda.

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It does and I hate it.
Look, I get it. You're grounded in reality and don't really get what fiction is good for. My wife's the same. But that doesn't mean you have to hate it. Fiction is essential for the psycho-hygiene of a great many people, myself included. If we can't get out of reality and make stuff up every once in a while, we start to go crazy. Now I'm an extreme example for sure, but most people need some amount of fantasy to stay sane.
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Old 03-13-2018, 06:41 PM   #20
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The job of a scientist is to make people think logically and reasonably.
Upon some reflection, this seems to be close to the core of the issue, so perhaps I should add another comment after all.

The job of a scientist has nothing to do with making other people think this way or that - making people think a certain way is commonly referred to as 'manipulation' or 'brainwashing' and is characteristic of an ideology.

Science in contrast has really much more to do with doubt - a good scientist not only constantly wonders whether what others try to feed her is actually genuine science or perhaps just a doctored sexy result, but she also is in the habit of doubting herself - where does her knowledge come from? Upon what hidden assumptions does it rest? What pitfalls might the deduction method have? Which brand of logic should be applied (yes, there's more than just one, and more than one definition of 'reasonable thought')? What can be said with reasonable certainty, what is a plausible hypothesis, what is just a model?

She would offer her data and conclusions to others for examination, trusting that if the evidence convinced her of something, the evidence will eventually convince others of the same thing - but not make sure to force others to the same conclusions.

There's the quib 'If we knew what we're doing, it wouldn't be called science' - and there's lots of truth in there.

Generally people who want to make others think a certain way tend to sacrifice the science based on the notion that the ends justifies the means - like I argue Dawkins does in his book, and like you do here by trying to use anecdotal evidence to make a point which can't be made with real evidence.

I'm sorry, but a claim that magic depicted in fiction widely encourages belief in magic in reality is bollocks and not backed up by any science - and you know it. It's actually much more akin to voodoo - you do a depiction of something, and it somehow affects reality equally well.

You may personally dislike fiction, or depiction of magic (and I respect that as your opinion and don't aim to dissuade you) - but that's not the same thing.

Whether it is particularly useful or constructive to bring your general dislike of fiction into any thread dealing with fiction is another matter... After all, people who do not like Orbiter for instance can just stay away from this forum - they don't have to register here to let everyone know they don't like it

Last edited by Thorsten; 03-13-2018 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:54 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by jedidia View Post
 Now I'm an extreme example for sure, but most people need some amount of fantasy to stay sane.
If you're saying that lack of fantasy would make apparently sane persons go postal and do more kills than those who are already influenced by it, then I'm starting to get the point

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Originally Posted by jedidia View Post
 Yes. That's why you don't let the input get one-sided. Being well familiar with the concept of fiction is a great protection against falling victim to propaganda.
(...)
If we can't get out of reality and make stuff up every once in a while, we start to go crazy.
This is something different than what Thorsten states - he is absolutely sure that there's no correlation between exposure to input and output. Where's the doubt here by the way?

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Originally Posted by Thorsten View Post
 Generally people who want to make others think a certain way tend to sacrifice the science based on the notion that the ends justifies the means - like I argue Dawkins does in his book, and like you do here by trying to use anecdotal evidence to make a point which can't be made with real evidence.

I'm sorry, but a claim that magic depicted in fiction widely encourages belief in magic in reality is bollocks and not backed up by any science - and you know it. It's actually much more akin to voodoo - you do a depiction of something, and it somehow affects reality equally well.
So if you're absolutely sure that that there's no correlation, it would be 100% safe to perform the following experiment: I'd lock you in a room without windows for exactly the same number of years as you've lived and I'd feed you with fiction 24/7 and afterwards we'd check how you behave outside. If you want to increase statistical significance we could prepare such rooms for your family and friends. You know best how to convince them that the experiment is safe.

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Originally Posted by Thorsten View Post
 Whether it is particularly useful or constructive to bring your general dislike of fiction into any thread dealing with fiction is another matter... After all, people who do not like Orbiter for instance can just stay away from this forum - they don't have to register here to let everyone know they don't like it
It's exactly as useful as you crippling my and Keith's Orbiter projects, so let's make it clear: you're not welcome in my threads either.
[EDIT] and at least our project had to do something with Orbiter.

Last edited by Enjo; 03-15-2018 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 03-15-2018, 08:50 AM   #22
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If you're saying that lack of fantasy would make apparently sane persons go postal and do more kills than those who are already influenced by it, then I'm starting to get the point
That is in fact exactly what I'm saying. "Going postal" is of course the far end, most people would just generally get more depressed. I myself came close to a nervous breakdown after the birth of our twins, because nothing snaps the shackles of reality on you more solidly than two little buggers that need constant watching. Without copious amounts of stress at work, this would probably have taken on a form of temporary depression, but with the additional pressure I basically felt imprisoned with no way out. Playing games, watching movies and coding ye olde IMS provided a window to a free world and the occasional reprieve from constantly feeling responsibility, panic and frustration.

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This is something different than what Thorsten states - he is absolutely sure that there's no correlation between exposure to input and output.
I don't think that's what he's saying at all. Of course what we consumes influences us. The core business of entertainment and art is to produce emotions, and producing emotions is a form of manipulation. The thing with fiction is that it's straight-up telling us that it's going to do that, so we can properly contextualise that influence, or even avoid it if we don't want it. That's why "genres" are a thing. At the bottom level, they just describe which kind of emotions a particular piece of fiction will be trying to evoke, so we can more easily choose what emotions we want to expose ourselves to at the moment.

I think what Thorsten is saying is that there is no correlation between consuming certain types of media and direct action taken as a result of that, a statement with which I agree.

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It's exactly as useful as you crippling my and Keith's Orbiter projects, so let's make it clear: you're not welcome in my threads either.
Ohhhh-key, so there's some history involved here that I don't know about... Maybe talking about that would be more productive than attacking a probably unrelated concept as a proxy. Also, a forum probably isn't the right place for such a talk.

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Old 03-15-2018, 09:18 AM   #23
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So if you're absolutely sure that that there's no correlation
Red herring alert - I didn't say that.

Asking people to prove the non-existence of a phenomenon is something that's pretty much impossible (which is why it's a favourite technique of conspiracy theorists to ask for such proof).

I've said that there's no tangible evidence for such a correlation, and hence there no reason to believe in your claim. That assessment might change once there is evidence found.

(The fallacy is that it doesn't suddenly become reasonable to believe something because it can't be ruled out 100% - generally we rule out things by confidence level, i.e. a high probability for the non-existence usually does the job).

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It's exactly as useful as you crippling my and Keith's Orbiter projects, so let's make it clear: you're not welcome in my threads either.
For the record - I can't recall crippling anyone's projects (why on Earth would I want that?) - it seems like another baseless claim.

I do recall suggesting a certain approach (numerical fitting of trajectories) to an orbital targeting problem, then politely retracting myself from the thread as you turned out not to be interested and later demonstrating that my approach is absolutely feasible and in fact very powerful with my LEO targeting software package.

I'm sorry if you felt so offended by me presenting that idea that you feel still upset after more than a year.

And, in case this needs to be spelled out: It's not my thread, it's just a thread I started, I don't own it and I don't judge whether what's said is appropriate - that's a moderator job - but for what it's worth, if you have anything constructive to contribute, be it critique or encouragement - you're welcome any time as far as I am concerned.

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and at least our project had to do something with Orbiter.
Yeah - it's Brighton lounge - says its for 'General off-topic discussions' - stuff which have something to do with Orbiter goes elsewhere.



Edit:

Since I just happen to come across it, here's a fitting statement from science:

Does playing violent video games cause aggression? A longitudinal intervention study

Taken together, the findings of the present study show that an extensive game intervention over the course of 2 months did not reveal any specific changes in aggression, empathy, interpersonal competencies, impulsivity-related constructs, depressivity, anxiety or executive control functions; neither in comparison to an active control group that played a non-violent video game nor to a passive control group.

People seem to get that GTA is a fictional video game...

Last edited by Thorsten; 03-15-2018 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 03-16-2018, 07:24 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by jedidia View Post
 That is in fact exactly what I'm saying. "Going postal" is of course the far end, most people would just generally get more depressed. I myself came close to a nervous breakdown after the birth of our twins, because nothing snaps the shackles of reality on you more solidly than two little buggers that need constant watching. Without copious amounts of stress at work, this would probably have taken on a form of temporary depression, but with the additional pressure I basically felt imprisoned with no way out. Playing games, watching movies and coding ye olde IMS provided a window to a free world and the occasional reprieve from constantly feeling responsibility, panic and frustration.
I'm sorry to hear this sad story. I've had two breakdowns, so I know what you're talking about.

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 I think what Thorsten is saying is that there is no correlation between consuming certain types of media and direct action taken as a result of that, a statement with which I agree.
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 People seem to get that GTA is a fictional video game...
Even though, I still disagree. I remember as a child when I was overdosing Heroes of Might and Magic, I started imagining my schoolmates with unit count bars, after which I erased the game. There could be a direct action taken if I didn't erase it. No research is going to disapprove my experience. At least for me.

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Originally Posted by jedidia View Post
 Ohhhh-key, so there's some history involved here that I don't know about... Maybe talking about that would be more productive than attacking a probably unrelated concept as a proxy. Also, a forum probably isn't the right place for such a talk.
If there was no history behind it, I would just keep my mouth shut, because I don't find this activity worthwhile, especially since I have big money to make for my customers every day.

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 For the record - I can't recall crippling anyone's projects (why on Earth would I want that?) - it seems like another baseless claim.
Baseless for you. You'd want to do that to prove that you're smarter than the rest and you've done this by bragging how smart theoretical physicist you are, how many influential codes you wrote, implying that I'm inferior and I should bow down to you. This was anything but polite.
And that PhD title bragging I find especially annoying, as the main reason I didn't graduate my PhD was that I had to feed my family, together with a disabled child I adopted (read: HUGE costs). I've had everything setup and was really encouraged by my supervisor but the reality didn't allow for it.

So if you've had something to contribute to my and Keith's project, some working code would work better than bragging and showing superiority. Since you've proven that your concept works and you GPLed it, hat off, but it shows that you're not a good team player - a feature which is strongly desired in the IT sector.


So next time, please be polite - we all have feelings. Some have thicker skins, some don't. Some wouldn't take it personally if you pissed on their face, and some will remember for a lifetime.

Have fun with your movie, even though I don't like the genre.

Last edited by Enjo; 03-16-2018 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:22 AM   #25
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No research is going to disapprove my experience. At least for me.
That is an entriely fine attitude and I can live with that (in fact, it's an attitude I take myself at times arguing that there are limits to science) - but you do realize that Dawkins would group you with the enemies of reason then? Because that's precisely what the proponents of, say, homeopathy are also arguing.


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You'd want to do that to prove that you're smarter than the rest and you've done this by bragging how smart theoretical physicist you are, how many influential codes you wrote, implying that I'm inferior and I should bow down to you.
I can't really keep you from assuming whatever you like about my motivation - even when I say I'm sorry that you took it the wrong way, you might assume that I don't really mean that I am sorry but just pretend to be - but you know, my real motivation might just have been that I happened to have a good solution to your problem in mind because I have a training in theoretical physics and perhaps see the shape of math things easier because of that and that I generally think sharing ideas is what this forum is about.

If you go through my posts here, you'll find that a fair share is about answering questions or suggesting ideas for people to try, so there was nothing exceptional in your case going on.

And I actually actively dislike people bowing to me - I've always encouraged my postdocs to disagree with me and not take what I say for gospel.

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So if you've had something to contribute to my and Keith's project, some working code would work better than bragging and showing superiority.
I don't really disagree with code being better than just an idea, unfortunately my time at that point was somewhat limited, so I couldn't code anything.

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Since you've proven that your concept works and you GPLed it, hat off, but it shows that you're not a good team player - a feature which is strongly desired in the IT sector.
*shrugs*

I'm one of the developers of Flightgear - that's a software project with a dozen core contributors and many more content developers. All volunteers, so you can't simply order people to do something - all needs to be discussed and people need to be convinced, or nothing happens.

Generally it's often rough going because we spend far more time discussing what we do not like than what we like... But, well, it does say something about my team ability...

Quote:
So next time, please be polite - we all have feelings.
As I said - I'm sorry you took my suggestion in the wrong light and felt offended - my real intention was to offer an idea, and as soon as it became apparent that this was not wanted, I removed myself from the thread.

That's all there is to it.

Edit:

Quote:
And that PhD title bragging I find especially annoying
I fear you grossly misunderstood that one...

It's just presenting credentials - and I think it's somewhat important these days. There's no shortage in the internet of people claiming to know this or that - unfortunately not all of them do. So looking at their background is one way (though not the only one) of assessing what they say.

If, say, I make a statement about the Space Shuttle you can't immediately check and that sounds wrong to you - would it make a difference to you if you knew I had my knowledge from working in the Shuttle program, or from reading through the NASA documents, or from playing a Shuttle sim?

If I tell you something about linguistics - would you want to know that I'm not a trained linguist, but that it's just my hobby?

Actually, I would like to know these things. I would really like to verify each and everything that's claimed individually, but the day is only so long, so we have to take a lot of information on faith, and I at least usually give much more weight to the aerospace engineers than to the simulator pilots.

So that's the reason for this - I'm not Spaceboy2001 who claims all sorts of interesting but unverifiable things - I'm here with my real name, you can google what I do in public, you can read up what I publish, you can access my code repositories if you want to make up your mind whether to trust what I say or not.

Last edited by Thorsten; 03-16-2018 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:29 PM   #26
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OF Staff Note: Though this is the Brighton lounge, please make every effort to keep threads on-topic (and to have civil discussions). Where possible, please settle disputes and differences in private.
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Old 03-17-2018, 06:15 AM   #27
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Not to make it any longer, let's say that I overreacted and learned something new.
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Old 03-17-2018, 06:58 PM   #28
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Back to the topic...

Something I woefully underestimated before getting into the details - the soundscape:



This is how a 2:30 minutes (relatively simple) scene is finally composed - that's over 50 different files contributing. The first row contains all the different cuts of the video stream with the sound recorded on the set, the second row the ambience sounds, the third row is the foley layer containing enhanced sound effects to augment what's been recorded on site and the final layer is the spoken voice clips recorded separately, post-processed and moved to the correct stereo position (replacing the voices on set).

It took me a while to figure out how to get precise enough sync between lip movement and the later sound recordings, but now it's okay within less than 0.1 s - and the advantage of the technique is that if we want to run in a different language, all we need to do is record the last row again with native speakers of a different language and render the project again.
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Old 03-18-2018, 12:17 AM   #29
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What language will the movie be in?

I mean, what language was it shot in?

Last edited by boogabooga; 03-18-2018 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 03-18-2018, 07:07 AM   #30
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It's shot in German and there'll be English, French and Finnish subtitle sets - so far the volunteers are in place. If we manage to draft enough locals, we can produce a Finnish spoken version as well.

It'd be cool to have an English spoken version, but it relies on finding volunteers for the task... Maybe some day...
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