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Old 12-02-2019, 02:54 PM   #31
Marijn
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In the Netherlands, you can't buy something online with your debitcard.

For online purchases, we mostly use iDEAL these days: https://www.ideal.nl/en/

iDeal basicly fills a template with everything set-up for a money transfer at the payer's bank. So'll you click iDeal, select your own bank, log into your thrusted bank account and click ok.

I was bringing this up because I suspect more people won't use their creditcard for donations, even when they are willing and able.

If you have an English webshop and want to sell to Dutch customers.. Then you need to offer iDeal. You won't sell much if you don't, even when the products are cheaper than everywhere else.

Last edited by Marijn; 12-02-2019 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:24 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Marijn View Post
 I've considered donating quite a few times, but I am reluctant to use a creditcard for this. That might be something cutural. But we (the Dutch) still consider creditcards as a means for emergency situations. Not for normal recurring payments.

This list illustrates that the use of creditcards is common in North America, but not so in mainland Europe: https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/ran..._credit_cards/
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Originally Posted by Artlav View Post
 Credit card as a loan one? Or a regular one?

Here in Russia all such cards are called credit cards, regardless of whether it's a debit card (your money only) or an actual credit card (loan from a bank).
Is it similar in the Netherlands?
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Originally Posted by Marijn View Post
 In the Netherlands, we have bankcards and creditcards. With a bankcard, you can withdraw money from your bankaccount down to a set limit (so this could include a loan). A creditcard is always a loan and you repay an amount each month including significant interest.

Creditcards aren't common here. I wouldn't buy groceries with it. It's just a backup payment method for when being on holiday or something or when you need to pay something and the bank account doesn't hold enough funds. So it's mainly for backup and emergencies. Not for causal payments.
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 Interesting.
I suspect that there might be a multi-layer translation issue here, since what you called bankcard sounds like something a recurring payment system like donations would accept just fine.
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Originally Posted by Marijn View Post
 In the Netherlands, you can't buy something online with your debitcard.

For online purchases, we mostly use iDEAL these days: https://www.ideal.nl/en/

iDeal basicly fills a template with everything set-up for a money transfer at the payer's bank. So'll you click iDeal, select your own bank, log into your thrusted bank account and click ok.

I was bringing this up because I suspect more people won't use their creditcard for donations, even when they are willing and able.

If you have an English webshop and want to sell to Dutch customers.. Then you need to offer iDeal. You won't sell much if you don't, even when the products are cheaper than everywhere else.

Thanks for the info on this. At the moment, I think we're only able to support PayPal - there isn't actually a bank account behind the scenes powering things, so we just keep all the money in the PayPal account itself.


I'm not sure what would be involved in extending our system to be able to take donations from other providers, but it's definitely something I'll consider.
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:48 PM   #33
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I'll check the PayPal options. If there's no major obstacle, I'll donate. I've been using the forum for more than 10 years now, so I think I should.
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Old 12-02-2019, 09:27 PM   #34
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 ..., so I think I should.
You should - if you could
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Old 12-03-2019, 05:20 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Marijn View Post
 I'll check the PayPal options. If there's no major obstacle, I'll donate. I've been using the forum for more than 10 years now, so I think I should.

Thatís awesome, thanks!

You can setup paypal so that it will use your debitcard. Iím going to contact iDeal/brokers to see if they can help us with this, but the contracts arenít cheap IIRC.
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Old 12-03-2019, 07:41 AM   #36
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Thanks everyone for their contributions so far Xyon could be a politician for his fund raising skills...

The forum should have a bar at the top of the page that shows donation progress against our monthly goal. It should only disappear on the rare occasion that we exceed our goal. I'm not here very often these days, but if people aren't seeing it, let me know and we can look into it.

Otherwise, g'day and nice to see you all again
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Old 12-03-2019, 08:43 AM   #37
Marijn
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 Thatís awesome, thanks!
No thanks. Thank you guys for running the forum.

Made a one time donation using creditcard.
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Old 12-03-2019, 11:36 AM   #38
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Dear mods and admins,

I own a couple of apartments and other stuff, that generate positive cash flow, as well as I get my due raises. I could easily finance the whole costs each month but if you’re wondering why I don’t do it, here are my points:
1) Charity:
I felt cheated, after you raised funds for the first time specifically to cover forum costs, you suddenly wanted to donate the excess money to charity, which was a break of the contract. By the way, the loudest proponents of this idea didn’t donate a single cent! In the end you didn’t let the non-productive members decide what should be done with my hard earned money, so we’re even here. It did however cost me a lot of nerves to even discuss such obvious topics with all these SJWs, to whom you gave enough fuel in the first place.

2) The case of the mathematician Keith from Hong Kong:
Keith, having posted many mathematical derivations and ideas, decided to delete all of his posts for an unknown reason. Your hypothesis – he got annoyed by one or more members. My hypothesis – he could have been persecuted by the Chinese government. Whoever is right on this one, I think it is his choice whether he wants to keep his posts or not. Your argumentation was, that as soon as he posts something on the O-F, it becomes the property of O-F (sic!) So are you a non-profit organization, or do you collect value in form of posts’ content as a forum asset, assuming it’s yours to take?

3) Last time I offered on the forum, on a similar occasion, democracy weighted by the sum of given person’s donation, my post was deleted and I was accused of flame baiting. Quite an accusation for just offering an alternative, that you’re just not accustomed with. In one of my apartments I have more voting power from the neighbor below me, just because I have slightly thinner walls, giving way for more area to pay for, thus more voting power, and everybody has to accept it.
The weighted democracy would have helped the community to get rid of major jerks, or at least peel their nails, before the normal people (including donators) left your forum for good. Your choice, but if you want play with the toys only by yourself, I won’t spend my family’s funds to buy them for you.

Enclosing here, it should also be valued, that you guys do donate your precious time into the forum, to keep it running by updating it and fighting off spam. I propose you to add that cherry on top of this service and try to lay tracks for solutions to come, instead of just pushing the train without tracks underneath.

Last edited by Enjo; 12-03-2019 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:17 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enjo View Post
  I felt cheated, after you raised funds for the first time specifically to cover forum costs, you suddenly wanted to donate the excess money to charity, which was a break of the contract.
An interesting view. I never thought of donations being contracts TBH, but I can see what you mean with the feelings.
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:51 PM   #40
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Quote:
An interesting view. I never thought of donations being contracts TBH, but I can see what you mean with the feelings.
Coming from a humanitarian background, it kind of is, and kind of isn't... The legalisms are extremely vague to be honest, but generally it's treated as a contract for "best-effort delivery". I.e. it is the duty of the one receiving the donation to do his best to use funds to the intent they were given in, but if for some reason that is no longer viable or practical, you are totally free to repurpose the money. If those purposes are self-serving a disgruntled donor would still have the recourse of suing for embezzlement, as he always has, but other than that, there's not much that can be done, and in fact should be done. In most cases this happens, repurposing is the best way to ensure the money doesn't get wasted.
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:37 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by jedidia View Post
 In most cases this happens, repurposing is the best way to ensure the money doesn't get wasted.
Wasted on what? I'm talking about covering future costs. At the moment of receiving excess funds, the narrative should naturally change to "For how long the excess funds are going to last?" and not to "Where shall we go shopping?"
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:04 PM   #42
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At the moment of receiving excess funds, the narrative should naturally change to "For how long the excess funds are going to last?" and not to "Where shall we go shopping?"
Except if you have a non-profit, this is problematic. Are your current funds still under the allowed level? Will they still be next year at the current funding level? If not, what are you going to do? Attempt to spend excess funds that cannot be practically spent on the purpose they were donated for for something else useful, or tell your donors to stop donating?

A hint from someone with experience in non-profits: The later is suicide. Too many donors might jump off, leaving you with too little funding after all. But that's only part of it. Building a donor base takes time and effort, it's not something you undermine lightly. You tell your donors that they can stop donating for now, and there's no guarantee that you'll ever get them back. Some will even get pissed because they feel insulted that you no longer want their money.
So you look around for opportunities you can eliminate excess funds in a sensible manner, you are open about it, you explain what is happening and what you are going to do with the money instead (all of which was done as far as I remember). And the one or other donor will get pissed about that, unfortunately. But it's much more survivable than sawing off the entire branch you're sitting on.
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:36 PM   #43
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Money is trouble and it's not worth it for such a small and quiet community.
How many active members do we have? I see about 20 "thankyous" on the first post.

So I think the forum could perfectly be run using PhpBB. I see no practical difference between here and other phpBB forums I use.
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:30 PM   #44
Xyon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enjo View Post
 Dear mods and admins,

... here are my points:
I'll take these in turn in the order you posted them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enjo View Post
  1) Charity:
I felt cheated, after you raised funds for the first time specifically to cover forum costs, you suddenly wanted to donate the excess money to charity, which was a break of the contract. By the way, the loudest proponents of this idea didnít donate a single cent! In the end you didnít let the non-productive members decide what should be done with my hard earned money, so weíre even here. It did however cost me a lot of nerves to even discuss such obvious topics with all these SJWs, to whom you gave enough fuel in the first place.
I'm sorry you felt this way, and we certainly weren't aware of any such feelings at the time we discussed the surplus funds. In actuality, although we loosely settled on charitable donation as the end result, it was never firmly defined what charity or cause would receive our donation, and it was soon after that the first incident involving access to our funds occurred, and no donation was made because of these eventualities.

I can understand why it might seem duplicitous to accept donations for one cause and then not use those funds for that cause. That sort of practice would give me pause to consider whether my donation is deserved or not too, and I totally get where you're coming from with this sentiment. On the other hand, the excess balance sitting in our account was the direct cause of our issues with PayPal, and not using the funds caused us some serious issues - including all our recurring donations being cancelled as I mention in post 1 in this thread.

It is obviously not the intention of myself or any other representative of Orbiter Forum to collect donated funds for the express purpose of anything other than covering our reasonable software costs. As of this moment I don't have any plans to donate any excess funds anywhere else, and I'm not aware of any similar plan among the other senior staff members.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enjo View Post
  2) The case of the mathematician Keith from Hong Kong:
Keith, having posted many mathematical derivations and ideas, decided to delete all of his posts for an unknown reason. Your hypothesis Ė he got annoyed by one or more members. My hypothesis Ė he could have been persecuted by the Chinese government. Whoever is right on this one, I think it is his choice whether he wants to keep his posts or not. Your argumentation was, that as soon as he posts something on the O-F, it becomes the property of O-F (sic!) So are you a non-profit organization, or do you collect value in form of postsí content as a forum asset, assuming itís yours to take?
Keith's case was not unique in that periodically members will approach the forum staff asking for their posts to be removed from the forum. In the interests of preserving an archive of a conversation, we generally decline to delete content our members have submitted to the board, because looking back on old threads with posts deleted from them is quite confusing and it limits our ability to provide a community of helpful conversation and advice from our members.

Should someone prefer instead to disassociate themselves with content they've posted to the forum, we can assign their posts to a "Joe Bloggs" (for the Americans: this is the British equivalent of John Doe) user, which preserves the content but removes your association with it.

I can't comment on what this particular user decided to do or any conversations between them and forum staff, but the evidence of the end result is plain, and it's not the outcome we'd have preferred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enjo View Post
  3) Last time I offered on the forum, on a similar occasion, democracy weighted by the sum of given personís donation, my post was deleted and I was accused of flame baiting. Quite an accusation for just offering an alternative, that youíre just not accustomed with. In one of my apartments I have more voting power from the neighbor below me, just because I have slightly thinner walls, giving way for more area to pay for, thus more voting power, and everybody has to accept it.
The weighted democracy would have helped the community to get rid of major jerks, or at least peel their nails, before the normal people (including donators) left your forum for good. Your choice, but if you want play with the toys only by yourself, I wonít spend my familyís funds to buy them for you.
I may be reading too much into this here, but the scenario you're outlining sounds like a "the more you pay, the more you can dictate how the forum should be" kind of setup, which we take great pains to avoid. Benefits of donation do exist, but they don't give you more say in forum decisions, nor do they make people exempt from moderation activities. We really do try very hard to keep the forum equal for all our members, whether they choose to donate to us or not.

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  Enclosing here, it should also be valued, that you guys do donate your precious time into the forum, to keep it running by updating it and fighting off spam.
We do try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enjo View Post
  I propose you to add that cherry on top of this service and try to lay tracks for solutions to come, instead of just pushing the train without tracks underneath.
I'm not sure what this meant?
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:31 PM   #45
Xyon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4throck View Post
 Money is trouble and it's not worth it for such a small and quiet community.
How many active members do we have? I see about 20 "thankyous" on the first post.

So I think the forum could perfectly be run using PhpBB. I see no practical difference between here and other phpBB forums I use.

I made a test board for this, I'll have to dig it out so you can see it.
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