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Old 01-14-2009, 09:37 PM   #16
Tommy
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Those specs are the MINIMUM required to run 7. If you actually want to run an application on top of the OS, you'll need a bit more unless you're very patient. You can get by with less video capability if you're willing to pass on the aero interface (not a problem for most people).

I've been using Windows since it first came out, and only been using Linux for about 6 years. I started using Linux because I simply got tired of Windows' limitations. I have several problems with Windows. There are files on my computer that I'm not allowed to see without using third party software, and can't remove them in any way. This is my computer, not Microsoft's, and this is unacceptable.

I have no say in where Windows decides to locate the pagefile.

There is an artificial limit to how many computers can be connected together in an ad-hoc (no central server) network.

UAC is still lacking compared to POSIX compliant OS's.

Still uses Drive Letters. Why should the user have to know what physical drive a file is located on?

I am a musician, and my computer is frequently used as a Digital Audio Workstation. With Windows XP I can use 16 tracks of audio (plus 32 tracks of MIDI) without having latency issues. On the same PC, with Linux, I can use 24 tracks of audio, REALTIME effects, and 64 tracks of MIDI, using a combination of hard and soft synths. Linux is clearly superior To XP for my uses, and Vista (and 7) are absolutely useless due to the "protected path" DRM which won't allow any sort of low latency audio drivers. With Windows, I can only use one audio app at a time, since I can't route signals between apps, and there's unified transport. No single app (for any platform) excels at all aspects of digital audio. With Linux, I use JACK (Jack Audio Connection Kit). I can route signals from any hardware input to any app's input, from any app's outputs to any other app's inputs (or a hardware output), and all the separate apps are synced to a single transport. This allows me to use the best app for the specific task (i.e. Rosegarden for sequencing, Ardour for Audio, Hydrogen for drums, Timidity for sample based synthesis) and have it all work together - in sync - and can add effects anywhere in the soundflow.

The only reason I still have Windows is for games. It's my "toy" operating system. For any kind of actual work I want to do, Linux is better. I've found apps that can do the same thing as the "Windows only" apps, often better.

Linux is faster than Windows. Rendering with Blender is about 30% faster on Linux than on Windows. Compositing with Cinelarra is about 25% faster. And that's with eye candy enabled that makes Windows XP look like an Atari (have you ever seen the E17 desktop? Makes a Mac look lame), and also running Apache webserver and an E-mail server.

XP is a lot more stable than the old DOS based versions, but nowhere close to Linux. I have one PC that's been up for almost 5 years with only two re-boots (for kernel upgrades, which can be done without rebooting if you really know how). Find me a Windows box with uptime like that!

I freely admit that Windows has improved in many ways (but worsened in a couple) but it still lacks the reliability, speed, and versatility of Linux. It's fine for the average home user, but not the best choice for anyone who depends on a computer for a living (unless you are a MCSE who depends on Window's failings to earn a living). There's a reason why Google, the NSA, and Weta Digital run Linux. Even Microsoft hosted the Windows websites (including Windows Update) on Linux when Melissa was due to attack.

And no, not "everything" runs on Windows. The battle scenes in the Lords of the Rings trilogy were "choreographed" using Massive. Massive has since been used for "crowd scenes" in quite a few major motion pictures. Massive doesn't run on Windows. I could give a long list of networking and forensic tools that also don't work on Windows.
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Old 01-14-2009, 10:08 PM   #17
Usquanigo
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lol, that's right, line up and take your shots at me. (so predictable - my comment to Scarecrow clearly applies to all of you (linux cultists))

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
 There are files on my computer that I'm not allowed to see without using third party software, and can't remove them in any way. This is my computer, not Microsoft's, and this is unacceptable.
Specify.


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I have no say in where Windows decides to locate the pagefile.


You can choose what drive the swap file is located on. This has been a recommended performance tweak since at least NT4.


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There is an artificial limit to how many computers can be connected together in an ad-hoc (no central server) network.
Servers are easy, and preferred, and offer incredible potential. However this is a personal preference, not a limitation or issue with the OS itself. (If servers were impossible to come by, it would be different)


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Still uses Drive Letters. Why should the user have to know what physical drive a file is located on?
Why aren't you using a Mac again? Besides, ProTools would seem to simplify things for you anyway.

Hell, why should a person have to remember what drawer in his filing cabinet imporant papers are in, or which pocket his wallet is in, or..... c'mon, be serious. This is a non-issue and griping like that leads us to ultimate big brother where people are tracked via chip just because they don't want to remember which pocket they put their credit card or driver's license in.


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The only reason I still have Windows is for games. It's my "toy" operating system. For any kind of actual work I want to do, Linux is better. I've found apps that can do the same thing as the "Windows only" apps, often better.
Funny, our animators (like many) need 3DS Max, and that's Windows. And 99% of all networks (more, really, I'm just giving you room) use Windows for a MULTITUDE of real-world buisness reasons. Not really a "toy" afterall.


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Linux is faster than Windows. Rendering with Blender is about 30% faster on Linux than on Windows. Compositing with Cinelarra is about 25% faster.
No reason to hate on anything else. Maybe just buy a modern computer....


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And that's with eye candy enabled that makes Windows XP look like an Atari (have you ever seen the E17 desktop? Makes a Mac look lame), and also running Apache webserver and an E-mail server.
Pure personal opinion. I think a riced out civic looks like ass, but ricers think it's the meanest thing on the streets.

I'll never run a web server or email server on anything used as a desktop. That's just bad form. I don't care what application or OS it is. For that matter, a home user and 99.99% of everyone here has no need for a personal email server. That's just elitist geek snobism. You want to do it just so you can say that you do.


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XP is a lot more stable than the old DOS based versions, but nowhere close to Linux. I have one PC that's been up for almost 5 years with only two re-boots (for kernel upgrades, which can be done without rebooting if you really know how). Find me a Windows box with uptime like that!
Given that updates often require a reboot, that's disingenuous. And given that constant uptime is pointless except in servers, that's also a non-issue. Just more of the same elitist geek snobism. I have a 2K server that runs IIS hosting our intranet, extranet, ftp server, and web forum, along with being the software library. Never had a problem with it. Been running for 5 years on the same hardware, and almost never rebooted (can't remember the last time it was, and the extranet and ftp server are used ALL the time).


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I freely admit that Windows has improved in many ways (but worsened in a couple)
Name them. Specifics.


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It's fine for the average home user, but not the best choice for anyone who depends on a computer for a living (unless you are a MCSE who depends on Window's failings to earn a living).
Which is why virutally every corporate desktop in the real world uses it. lol You know, this kind of hatred for an inanimate object, espeically one that powers the world and enabled you to have the toys you love to play with, is really unheathly, you might want to look into meds or therapy.


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There's a reason why Google, the NSA, and Weta Digital run Linux.
Yeah, the 'mentality' you and many others here have. Resentment, hatred (predjudice), and jealousy. Nice way to cherry pick examples too btw. As a consultant I've been in more environments and server rooms and data centers than I could name, from banks to hospitals to publishers to niche companies. Nary a linux box in site (hehe, textual pun) (at most maybe a toy one of the IT staff chose to play with)

However, unlike you, I don't get all riled up and go frothing at the mouth over linux.


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And no, not "everything" runs on Windows. The battle scenes in the Lords of the Rings trilogy were "choreographed" using Massive. Massive has since been used for "crowd scenes" in quite a few major motion pictures. Massive doesn't run on Windows. I could give a long list of networking and forensic tools that also don't work on Windows.
What was the phrase.....? "There are no absolutes", yeah, that's it. lol That's just like the Mac snobs who always claim that Macs are it for graphics, never mind that DECs sunk the Titanic and you almost never find Macs in Hollywood. You can cherry pick an example, but it doesn't prove anything. Any number of reasons as to why that tool IS used, and is NOT on any given platform. Doesn't change the reality of the sitaution.
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Old 01-14-2009, 10:46 PM   #18
Hielor
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I'm not even going to get in on all the various platform-bashing here. It's pointless.

Now we've got Linux people saying that Windows is worthless because it's not as configurable as Linux. Of course it's not. Linux is aimed at (and largely created by) the modern-day version of the classic 80s nerd (you know, the ones who actually HAD computers). Windows is aimed at the average computer user, but also gamers, businesspeople, etc. The average computer user these days won't be able to make heads or tails of a Linux install, especially not if you hand them a command prompt and tell them to do something useful with it. That's not the people it's aiming at.

Anyway, RE: performance specs for Win7.

If I can pick up a pre-built computer from the local store which meets (and in fact, greatly exceeds) those requirements for only $100, I'd say that the requirements are extremely reasonable. You'd probably be able to build a computer for under $100 that exceeds those requirements, if you picked the parts yourself.

With modern new computers costing upwards of $500 and usually having 2-3x those minimum specs, it's a non-issue. Unlike a lot of software, operating systems aren't really designed to be installed on old computers--although I imagine with Win7 you'll have a lot of people replacing their Vista installs with Win7, because most people hate Vista so much.

Bloodspray: I'd like to present Orbiter as a situation where Vista is not as fast as XP, since they moved DX7 to an emulation layer. On my 4-year-old XP desktop, I was getting upwards of 130fps. On my laptop which is less than a year old (and has a comparable 3dmark score), I'm lucky to break 30, and that's with Doug's VistaBoost.
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Old 01-14-2009, 10:49 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Bloodspray View Post
 Yeah, the 'mentality' you and many others here have. Resentment, hatred (predjudice), and jealousy.
Not just the mentality, but the cost also. When setting up two servers (web server and file server) for our office, the primary reason we went for Linux was cost. It was simply going to cost too much to purchase the Windows Server licenses. I went for openSUSE on the file server and SME Server for the web server (in both cases previous experience had taught me that it was going to be easy to set up those products for their intended purpose). The web server is running on ancient hardware (>8yrs old) so I also saved the cost of new hardware. There was no greater effort required to setup these boxes than would have been required for Windows Server (I know because our Brisbane office uses Windows Server).

IMHO, you can go either way. Linux has its uses, Windows has its uses. Whatever suits. Make your own decision.
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Old 01-14-2009, 11:53 PM   #20
Scarecrow
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Originally Posted by Bloodspray View Post
 lol, that's right, line up and take your shots at me. (so predictable - my comment to Scarecrow clearly applies to all of you (linux cultists)) ...

...I'll never run a web server or email server on anything used as a desktop. That's just bad form. I don't care what application or OS it is. For that matter, a home user and 99.99% of everyone here has no need for a personal email server. That's just elitist geek snobism. You want to do it just so you can say that you do...

...Just more of the same elitist geek snobism...

...You know, this kind of hatred for an inanimate object, espeically one that powers the world and enabled you to have the toys you love to play with, is really unheathly, you might want to look into meds or therapy. ...

...Yeah, the 'mentality' you and many others here have. Resentment, hatred (predjudice), and jealousy...

...However, unlike you, I don't get all riled up and go frothing at the mouth over linux. ...
Cultists? Elitist geek snobism? Frothing at the mouth? I finally going to point out that I don't like this sort of terminology. I don't kneel before The Statue of the Mighty Penguin every morning when I get out of bed, and I don't have rabies either. If I chose, I could come up with ad hominem attacks of equal magnitude about you, but I choose not to. Please restrain your arguments (which have been good, overall, even if I don't believe they apply to my fringe use cases) to the topic of debate, not the people in the debate. Thank you.

Anyway...

The fact of the matter is, Windows is simply not the optimal tool for the vast majority of what I do. It was designed, is fine for, and is used by, 90.5% of people browsing the web (or some other, similar metric, I haven't delved into this too closely), according to http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp.
However, I am not 90.5% of people. Ad-hoc software development (often single use stuff) is what I spend most of my time doing, because I find it fun. My OS doesn't force me to do it (I often did it on windows too before I switched), but it sure does make it very easy. Windows doesn't let me do what I want as efficently as Linux does. And that's all, for me.

Now one might wonder, why do I proclaim these things publicly? Because in each case I jump into in this way, I have previously observed Windows being portrayed as the be all and end all of whatever is being discussed, which it clearly is not it that case. I want to let it be known to whoever might be observing that there are choices, and Windows may not be the optimal solution to their problems (as in my case). I am vastly happier with my computer than I ever was with a windows box, but I never would have even considered Linux as an alternative if I hadn't observed it in action elsewhere. I was able to make an informed choice, based on pros and cons of each system, and I am happier as a result of it. I want others to have the same oppurtunity.

And why do I not present the counter arguments for the benefit of said possible observers? Because you're doing that quite well. Why work more than necessary?
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Old 01-15-2009, 12:03 AM   #21
Hielor
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Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
 The fact of the matter is, Windows is simply not the optimal tool for the vast majority of what I do. It was designed, is fine for, and is used by, 90.5% of people browsing the web (or some other, similar metric, I haven't delved into this too closely), according to http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp.
However, I am not 90.5% of people. Ad-hoc software development (often single use stuff) is what I spend most of my time doing, because I find it fun. My OS doesn't force me to do it (I often did it on windows too before I switched), but it sure does make it very easy. Windows doesn't let me do what I want as efficently as Linux does. And that's all, for me.

Now one might wonder, why do I proclaim these things publicly? Because in each case I jump into in this way, I have previously observed Windows being portrayed as the be all and end all of whatever is being discussed, which it clearly is not it that case. I want to let it be known to whoever might be observing that there are choices, and Windows may not be the optimal solution to their problems (as in my case). I am vastly happier with my computer than I ever was with a windows box, but I never would have even considered Linux as an alternative if I hadn't observed it in action elsewhere. I was able to make an informed choice, based on pros and cons of each system, and I am happier as a result of it. I want others to have the same oppurtunity.
No OS is the be all and end-all of everything, and anyone who tries to claim otherwise(about any OS) is in the OS-worshiping category.

I use Windows on my two good computers because they're for gaming, so I really don't have another choice for that. On my other laptops I use Linux because it's easier to develop for, and that's the primary reason i bought the damn things was to be MFDs in my simpit, and I kind of have to develop the software for that first.
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Old 01-15-2009, 12:37 AM   #22
Usquanigo
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Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
 The fact of the matter is, Windows is simply not the optimal tool for the vast majority of what I do. It was designed, is fine for, and is used by, 90.5% of people browsing the web (or some other, similar metric, I haven't delved into this too closely), according to http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp.
However, I am not 90.5% of people. Ad-hoc software development (often single use stuff) is what I spend most of my time doing, because I find it fun. My OS doesn't force me to do it (I often did it on windows too before I switched), but it sure does make it very easy. Windows doesn't let me do what I want as efficently as Linux does. And that's all, for me.

Now one might wonder, why do I proclaim these things publicly? Because in each case I jump into in this way, I have previously observed Windows being portrayed as the be all and end all of whatever is being discussed, which it clearly is not it that case. I want to let it be known to whoever might be observing that there are choices, and Windows may not be the optimal solution to their problems (as in my case). I am vastly happier with my computer than I ever was with a windows box, but I never would have even considered Linux as an alternative if I hadn't observed it in action elsewhere. I was able to make an informed choice, based on pros and cons of each system, and I am happier as a result of it. I want others to have the same oppurtunity.

And why do I not present the counter arguments for the benefit of said possible observers? Because you're doing that quite well. Why work more than necessary?
See, this here is the crux.

Linux is fine, other than taking a jab for fun over the lack of buisness standard software or games, or perhaps pointing out the pointlessness of dual-booting (which I only do in response to fire coming this way in the first place), I don't ever take shots at Linux.

Meanwhile, we have you guys attacking Windows at EVERY opportunity, portrating it as Stalin's own love child, and spreading falsehoods or making HUGE issues out of absolutely nothing. And when someone responds to that, they end up effectively pouring gasoline on a fire. And of course it's always done with the implication that anyone who uses Windows doesn't actually USE (or know how to use) their computer. It IS an elitist approach and attitude. I'm simply pointing that out.

And that too is also the only reason I ever "defend" Windows. You really aren't ensuring people know there are choices, you are trying to spread propaganda, even if that's not your intent, that's the net effect of your actions.

As for development, it depends on the tools available, information available, APIs, and what's being developed, and of course, personal preference. But that doesn't make Windows evil or worthless or limiting.

BTW, if you have the Server CALs for a newer OS, then the older ones automatically qualify and you don't need to re-purchase them. 2K and NT Server do quite well on older hardware too. Conversely that doesn't mean Linux should never be used, but it's not the only opion nor a requirement in virtually any given case. Everything is a case by case basis.
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Old 01-15-2009, 01:20 AM   #23
Tommy
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lol, that's right, line up and take your shots at me.
Well, you did fire the first round by saying Linux is pointless.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy
There are files on my computer that I'm not allowed to see without using third party software, and can't remove them in any way. This is my computer, not Microsoft's, and this is unacceptable.

Specify.
What? An IT worker who's never heard of Super-Hidden Files? While a registry hack will make them visible, it takes third party software to remove them. Many viruses use this to hide themselves. Processes can also be hidden, I've seen PC's using over 50% of the processor when the listed processes were using less than 5%

http://windowsitpro.com/article/arti...den-files.html

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You can choose what drive the swap file is located on. This has been a recommended performance tweak since at least NT4.
Windows keeps relocating my swap file every time the specified drive has less than 12% free space, even though 12% of my 500Gb drive is four times as much space as it needs.

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This is a non-issue and griping like that leads us to ultimate big brother where people are tracked via chip just because they don't want to remember which pocket they put their credit card or driver's license in.
So me saying I don't care which drive the files in /Home/Me/Music are on is a cry for a big brother government? Can I have some of whatever you're on?

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Servers are easy, and preferred, and offer incredible potential. However this is a personal preference, not a limitation or issue with the OS itself. (If servers were impossible to come by, it would be different)
Preferred by who? People who make money selling them? It's obvious you've never owned a small business. You don't get ahead by buying things unless you absolutely need them. A dedicated server running $3000 (that's what a small business has to pay for MS Server, they don't get the big corporate discounts) of O.S. is a luxury, not a necessity. If you have plenty of HD space, a network capable printer, and a router, why do you need a server? It offers nothing you don't already have, it's just an additional expense with no ROI.

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Funny, our animators (like many) need 3DS Max, and that's Windows. And 99% of all networks (more, really, I'm just giving you room) use Windows for a MULTITUDE of real-world buisness reasons.
They don't NEED 3ds Max, they just prefer it. There are plenty of other solutions, such as Maya, SoftImage, etc, that will run on Linux. Admittedly, 3dsMax has a slight advantage for people in the gaming industry. And the actual number is 74%percent (not 99%) for buisiness servers, and less than 40% for Web servers. Let's not forget that so many businesses use MS because there were no other options, since MS used (and was convicted in federal court) illegal buisiness practices to squash any competition, such as Dr DOS and OS2. Even now, MS OEM licensing practices are anti-competetive. If a computer OEM offers Linux on it's computers, Microsoft won't give them an OEM discount price on Windows.

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No reason to hate on anything else. Maybe just buy a modern computer....
Once again you show no business sense. Why buy a new computer when the one you have works? The problem isn't the hardware, its the OS.

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And that's with eye candy enabled that makes Windows XP look like an Atari (have you ever seen the E17 desktop? Makes a Mac look lame), and also running Apache webserver and an E-mail server.
Pure personal opinion. I think a riced out civic looks like ass, but ricers think it's the meanest thing on the streets
E17 doesn't just look good, it's designed specifically to reduce eyestrain. Health is not "personal opinion". Though I agree completely on the Hondas. Always thought they look like Matchbox cars!

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I'll never run a web server or email server on anything used as a desktop. That's just bad form. I don't care what application or OS it is. For that matter, a home user and 99.99% of everyone here has no need for a personal email server. That's just elitist geek snobism. You want to do it just so you can say that you do.
When you have limited resources sometimes computers have to perform more than one task. A low volume Webserver can easily share hardware with the part-time secretary's desktop - if you are using a secure jailing system.

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Given that updates often require a reboot, that's disingenuous.
No, they don't. Even the kernel can be "hot-swapped" if you know what you're doing. There is absolutely no need to reboot a linux system for any other up-date. Windows needs re-booting for up-dates - not Linux.

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I have a 2K server that runs IIS hosting our intranet, extranet, ftp server, and web forum, along with being the software library. Never had a problem with it. Been running for 5 years on the same hardware, and almost never rebooted (can't remember the last time it was, and the extranet and ftp server are used ALL the time).
So you're saying that you've been slacking off on the updates to that server?

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I freely admit that Windows has improved in many ways (but worsened in a couple)
Name them. Specifics.
See my original post for my comments on "protected path". See also the massive increase in hardware requirements and bloat.

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It's fine for the average home user, but not the best choice for anyone who depends on a computer for a living (unless you are a MCSE who depends on Window's failings to earn a living).
Which is why virutally every corporate desktop in the real world uses it.
Popularity is not a reflection of quality. Once again I'll remind you that MS is a CONVICTED monopolist. Most companies use Windows simply because they use Windows, and have never given any real thought to the alternatives. 10 years ago, there weren't any alternatives, and inertia keeps them going. People don't like change.
BTW, it's virtually all American corporate desktops. In Europe, Linux and even the Amiga have a substantial user base.

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As a consultant I've been in more environments and server rooms and data centers than I could name, from banks to hospitals to publishers to niche companies. Nary a linux box in site
Look a little closer at the routers. More than half the routers sold in the last 5 years are running on a linux variant.

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Yeah, the 'mentality' you and many others here have. Resentment, hatred (predjudice), and jealousy. Nice way to cherry pick examples too btw.
If I hated MS as much as you think, I wouldn't use it at all. And I find othing to be jealous of, I have something better. As far as cherry picking, would you rather I used examples no-one ever heard of? I could cite Ernie Ball Co, but unless you play guitar, you've likely never heard of them. They used Windows until MS pissed them off. Then they decided to look for an alternative, found Linux, and now wish they had switched sooner. Cheaper, more reliable, and no hassles from MS "Business Software Alliance" (the License Nazi's). Other companies/governments using Linux include : Bay Area Rapid Transit, Burlington Coat Factory, Conoco, Cisco (worldwide print operations), Digital Domain (movie special effects, incuding Apollo 13 and Titanic), City of Garden Grove, CA, Just Sports USA, Kaiser Aluminum, Mexico City government, Tommy Hilfiger, Royal Dutch/Shell, Toyota USA, Travelocity, U.S. Army (Land Warrior system), U.S. Federal Courts, U.S. Post Office, Panasonic, Largo Florida (all city office desktops), Alcoa Aluminum, Auto Zone, Bank of America, the Boston Stock Exchange, Canadian National Railways, Chicago Mercantile Exchange, Daimler/Chrysler, Dreamworks SKG, Ford Motor Company, Lockheed-Martin, New York Stock Exchange, Playboy Magazine, U.S. Navy, U.S. Veterans Administration, Vandebuilt University, Walt Disney. I could go on, but I think I've made my point. Companies who have switched to Linux report that (on average) they have 65% fewer tech problems, and have reduced their IT bill by 50%.

BTW, I think it's funny that you mention that DEC's "sunk the Titanic" but didn't mention that they were running on Linux when they did so.

I'm not a Linux evangelist, I don't usually recommend it for people who want a home computer. Depending on their needs, I recommend XP Pro, or Mac. While Linux can make a good home PC, it takes more tech savvy than Windows or Mac to do it, so I tend not to recommend it for the "average" user. For a business, however, it offers many advantages over Windows or Mac. Low cost being the most important. IT expenditures are necessary, but tend to have a very low ROI. Minimizing IT expenses can make a huge difference to a small buisiness staying in buisiness. And I'd rather my government went with the most cost effective, reliable solution in every way. That means Linux, not spending thousands of dollars on "forced upgrades", and having to buy new hardware every 5 yearswhen the old hardware can get the job done just fine.
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Old 01-15-2009, 02:29 AM   #24
Usquanigo
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Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
 Well, you did fire the first round by saying Linux is pointless.
Read it again.



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What? An IT worker who's never heard of Super-Hidden Files? While a registry hack will make them visible, it takes third party software to remove them. Many viruses use this to hide themselves. Processes can also be hidden, I've seen PC's using over 50% of the processor when the listed processes were using less than 5%

http://windowsitpro.com/article/arti...den-files.html
The registry is there to be changed. Doing so is NOT a "hack". And I'd love to see what you were running or got infected with to see CPU utilization that wasn't showing in the task manager with "show all processes" checked.



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Windows keeps relocating my swap file every time the specified drive has less than 12% free space, even though 12% of my 500Gb drive is four times as much space as it needs.
You have posessed Windows then. It stays where I put it. And sometimes ya just gotta pay to play. When talking about the extreme duty you claim to put your machine through, it's personal stuff, and if you want to do it, there's a price for admission. That's just the way it is. Just like in cars, "speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?".



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So me saying I don't care which drive the files in /Home/Me/Music are on is a cry for a big brother government? Can I have some of whatever you're on?
Pretty much. It's called a slippery slope, also referred to by "one thing leads to another". It's just like the BS slung by that socialist FDR for the illegal (read UnConstitutional) National Firearms Act of 1934. People don't want to be responsible to know where THEY THEMSELVES are, so we have GPS tracked phones. Someone I used to work with championed the idea of using an implanted chip to carry medical and bank information and using it to purchase everything because "cash is a hassle".

Futhermore, if you're really that worried about it, use DFS. (BTW, home/me/music IS a location (even if virtual), just as much as C:\Orbiter is. Just shows how pointless your whole comment there is)



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Preferred by who? People who make money selling them? It's obvious you've never owned a small business. You don't get ahead by buying things unless you absolutely need them. A dedicated server running $3000 (that's what a small business has to pay for MS Server, they don't get the big corporate discounts) of O.S. is a luxury, not a necessity.
Wrong. Just bought a new HP 1U with 2008, hardware was $750, and the OS was $1200. Not free, but a FAR cry from the 3 grand you (faslely - perhaps even intentionally?) claim.

As for the statement, they are preferred by buisnesses. Doesn't matter if it's Linux or Windows or AIX or Solaris or any other flavor. Better hardware, better containability and consolidation of hardware (means better physical security, better power protection, and lower climat control costs) and data (means easier backup (which means better security) and lower TCO when it comes to data wrangling, as well as greater ease of use for the userbase) and user rights (lower TCO, better security).

Even for the non-buisness people they are better than an endless string of desktops with stuff strewn about all of them. Pretty easy to get them too from buisnesses that are upgrading, or just run linux. lol Unlike you, I'm not full of unjustified predjudice about software.



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If you have plenty of HD space, a network capable printer, and a router, why do you need a server? It offers nothing you don't already have, it's just an additional expense with no ROI.
Read above. It offers plenty. You sit there and decry my "buisness savvy" and then turn around and display absolutely none of your own. I love that. lol



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They don't NEED 3ds Max, they just prefer it. There are plenty of other solutions, such as Maya, SoftImage, etc, that will run on Linux. Admittedly, 3dsMax has a slight advantage for people in the gaming industry.
Training for hire-ees, existing content, hardware, existing network infrastructure, as well as minutae of use all DO require it. When the dept. started the lead animator had his pick, and they always need more equipment, and we are a tiny company with virutally no spare cash, best way to do that would be to use this super awesome linux that could make a 286 crunch 1500 frames an hour, right?



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MS used (and was convicted in federal court) illegal buisiness practices to squash any competition, such as Dr DOS and OS2.
And here we see the hatred and resentment come out. I can just see you red in the face right now. lol Yeah, they ran their buisness like a buisnees SHOULD be run, and they are evil for it. Are you a communist too?

They MADE OS2. IBM couldn't market anything, make crappy hardware that isn't big-iron, and couldn't develop the product on their own. That's why it died. Boo hoo.



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Even now, MS OEM licensing practices are anti-competetive. If a computer OEM offers Linux on it's computers, Microsoft won't give them an OEM discount price on Windows.
So? That's their choice and there's not a damned thing wrong with it. Only windows hating linux zealots have an issue with that.

Why did the IBM compatible PC dominate? Because people used it at work, so they wanted it at home. Why does Windows stay around? Well, because it works, is cheap to run and comes with PCs, but also because the userbase is pre-existing, they use it at home, used it in school, and used it in all their past jobs. That makes it cheaper too. (you even acknowledged that in your snobish comments about a "home pc", and Mac has always sucked on a real network - if you want a real example, look at Novell Netware. They became redundant and overly complicated, so they went away. Oh well. That's how it goes)





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Once again you show no business sense. Why buy a new computer when the one you have works? The problem isn't the hardware, its the OS.
lol! Right. Better to re-train ALL your employees to learn some alien OS (be it Mac, Linux, Solaris, ANYthing), and change the way they do everything. Yeah, most of the computer using workforce would be able to handle that easily and cheaply. http://www.thewebsiteisdown.com doesn't present a characiture, it presents a typical network user (especially sales guys).

Even with Linux, that's a 1 time deal. Meaning, if you remove your clutch-fan in favor of an electric one, you gain more efficiency, but when you need more power after that, you have to upgrade something. Same with linux, as people get newer home PCs, even as they just use an existing system, it starts feeling slow, this lowers productivity. Morale really is important btw. Further, as applications become more complex, they get bigger, this means they require more power. As power increases, more things can be done.

Following your line of "reasoning" to it's conclusion would leave us stuck on 8086s. Efficiency only gets you so far, and it also costs money on the back end. Who cares about it not being written in ultra tight assembly if you have a 3GHz P4 to run it on? It all ties together, and lets you do the things you do (including Orbiter), but you don't care.



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E17 doesn't just look good, it's designed specifically to reduce eyestrain. Health is not "personal opinion". Though I agree completely on the Hondas. Always thought they look like Matchbox cars!
Work practices can do more to reduce risks than any GUI style or design. It's often "the man, not the machine".





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When you have limited resources sometimes computers have to perform more than one task. A low volume Webserver can easily share hardware with the part-time secretary's desktop - if you are using a secure jailing system.
Bad practice. If the web-site is critical, it should not be on any system used by anybody, least of all a secretary, spills, kicked plugs, being shut off in frustration, etc, etc. Its just bad form. Period. There really is no excuse for it.



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No, they don't. Even the kernel can be "hot-swapped" if you know what you're doing. There is absolutely no need to reboot a linux system for any other up-date. Windows needs re-booting for up-dates - not Linux.
Given that you talked about uptime comparison to Windows, which DOES require reboots for updates, my comment stands accurately.



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Once again I'll remind you that MS is a CONVICTED monopolist.
Once again I'll remind *you* we have these wonderful toys BECAUSE of Microsoft. (and that being a convicted monopolist just means you're running your buisness well - or at least better than the competition)



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If I hated MS as much as you think, I wouldn't use it at all.
If you were as well adjusted as you claim, you wouldn't be so offended by people pointing out the falsehoods in the anti-Windows hatred and showing the good points of Windows.



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And I find othing to be jealous of, I have something better.
Yet you're awfully sensitive about it for some reason.



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I could go on, but I think I've made my point. Companies who have switched to Linux report that (on average) they have 65% fewer tech problems, and have reduced their IT bill by 50%.
Yeah..... nice claims. That list is dwarfed by the list of Windows users, and I guarantee Windows is all OVER a lot of those places that you listed, AND that the ones where it's more scarce are not the norm when it comes to work force and hiring practices. BTW, people "reduced their IT bill" by off-shoring too. That also hurts the US economy, but it's a good thing anyway, right?

IT isn't expensive, poorly run IT, and managers who write checks for no reason lead to expensive IT (meaning buying toys for the geeks just because they want them).
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Old 01-15-2009, 03:46 AM   #25
Linguofreak
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Originally Posted by Bloodspray View Post
 And here we see the hatred and resentment come out. I can just see you red in the face right now. lol Yeah, they ran their buisness like a buisnees SHOULD be run, and they are evil for it. Are you a communist too?
No, they did not run their business as a business should be run. I'm not familiar with the interaction between IBM and Microsoft on OS/2, but I do know that Microsoft adopted a policy (which contributed to the failure of DR-DOS), of requiring that if vendors wanted to sell MS-DOS at all, they would have to purchase an MS-DOS license for every PC they sold. This guaranteed that Microsoft would sell one MS-DOS license for every license sold for any other OS for a PC, which made it next to impossible for any other company to compete in the PC OS market.

Such business practices do more harm than good to capitalism, and objecting to them is not communism.


-----Post Added-----


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Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
  Even now, MS OEM licensing practices are anti-competetive. If a computer OEM offers Linux on it's computers, Microsoft won't give them an OEM discount price on Windows.
To be fair, the fact that Linux is free weakens your arguement a bit here. Linux does not "compete" in the traditional sense because it's not out to make money.

But Microsoft has used similar anti-competitive schemes against for-profit OS's in the past.
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Old 01-15-2009, 04:36 AM   #26
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The registry is there to be changed. Doing so is NOT a "hack". And I'd love to see what you were running or got infected with to see CPU utilization that wasn't showing in the task manager with "show all processes" checked.
Several viruses avoid detection by not running as processes, the are merely threads. The can also run as interupts. Either way they don't show up in the task manager. I often have to deal with people who have set up there own small business network, and thes people get all kinds of funny things. Yes, that's largely due to bad practices (employees surfing porn, etc.), but it happens.

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And sometimes ya just gotta pay to play. When talking about the extreme duty you claim to put your machine through, it's personal stuff, and if you want to do it, there's a price for admission.
No you don't have to "pay to play". You simply need to have a system that works, without making excuses for it's failures.

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Better to re-train ALL your employees to learn some alien OS (be it Mac, Linux, Solaris, ANYthing), and change the way they do everything.
I can retrain someone to use Linux (KDE) in half an hour. Training them to use OpenOffice instead of Word can take longer, but most people can pick it up on their own in a couple days. It's just not that different from a user's point of view.

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Even with Linux, that's a 1 time deal. Meaning, if you remove your clutch-fan in favor of an electric one, you gain more efficiency, but when you need more power after that, you have to upgrade something.
The point was that they don't need more power, they already have enough. They shouldn't be forced to get more power to run software bloated with features they'll never use.

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So me saying I don't care which drive the files in /Home/Me/Music are on is a cry for a big brother government? Can I have some of whatever you're on?
Pretty much. It's called a slippery slope, also referred to by "one thing leads to another". It's just like the BS slung by that socialist FDR for the illegal (read UnConstitutional) National Firearms Act of 1934. People don't want to be responsible to know where THEY THEMSELVES are, so we have GPS tracked phones. Someone I used to work with championed the idea of using an implanted chip to carry medical and bank information and using it to purchase everything because "cash is a hassle".
I take it you have a tin foil hat, you are paranoid. There was nothing in my comment that even comes close to suggesting anything of the sort. I simply said that there is no good reason I shouldn't be able to find a file simply by knowing what folder it's in, and not need to know what actual drive it's on. That's pretty much what MS is trying to do with the "virtual folders" or whatever they called it that was supposed to be in Vista. The ability to mount a drive or partition anywhere in the file tree is handy, and I'm sure MS would be doing that if they weren't stuck trying to be backwards compatible with the older DOS based versions.

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Work practices can do more to reduce risks than any GUI style or design. It's often "the man, not the machine".
That doesn't negate the value of a more ergonomic interface. Every bit helps.

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Bad practice. If the web-site is critical, it should not be on any system used by anybody, least of all a secretary, spills, kicked plugs, being shut off in frustration, etc, etc. Its just bad form. Period. There really is no excuse for it.
Not all websites are critical. For critical websites, a small business should be using a third party hosting solution with 24/7 techs, not hosting it themselves. The one I was talking about is used by a local school for inter-office E-mail and scheduling AV resources. In the event the host computer goes down, it can be hosted on another machine in minutes. Plenty robust for theirneeds, and leaves more money for actually teaching kids. That IS what schools do. For most small non-profits, $2000 is a significant portion of the annual budget. It's money that isn't being spent accomplishing the goal.

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Once again I'll remind *you* we have these wonderful toys BECAUSE of Microsoft. (and that being a convicted monopolist just means you're running your buisness well - or at least better than the competition)
So shoplifting makes me a better shopper? You seem to have no respect for the law, perhaps that's why you are paranoid enough to see "big brother" where he doesn't exist. Are you perhaps an anarchist? Running a business illegaly is not running it well - just ask Arthur Anderson. Competion leads to innovation. By stifling the competition, MS has likely reduced the advancement of these "wonderfull toys".

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Yeah..... nice claims. That list is dwarfed by the list of Windows users, and I guarantee Windows is all OVER a lot of those places that you listed, AND that the ones where it's more scarce are not the norm when it comes to work force and hiring practices.
I'm not the one making those claims, the companies that switched are. Why would they lie? 4 years ago, Windows had 96% of the desktop market worldwide. Now they have 90%. Yes, that's a lot, but look at it this way - In four years, the competion has increased their market share by 250%.

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(BTW, home/me/music IS a location (even if virtual), just as much as C:Orbiter is. Just shows how pointless your whole comment there is)
I've moved the music collection four times as I added (larger) hardrives, but the pathname remains the same. Move your music files from C: to D:, fire up your player, load a playlist, and listen to the sweet sound of silence.

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Who cares about it not being written in ultra tight assembly if you have a 3GHz P4 to run it on?
Anyone who can't afford that 3Ghz P4.

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Better hardware, better containability and consolidation of hardware (means better physical security, better power protection, and lower climat control costs) and data (means easier backup (which means better security) and lower TCO when it comes to data wrangling, as well as greater ease of use for the userbase) and user rights (lower TCO, better security).
For a large business, yes that matters. For a small one, with less than a dozen computers, it doesn't. Extra hardware is an extra expense. How does adding yet another heat source help climate control? For a small company, having one persons desktop running the database solves the "data wrangling" problem nicely. Back-ups are created automatically on a daily basis (two backup files on two different PC,s for redundancy) and written to tape weekly - all automatically. The only effort required is for someone to swap the tape once a week.

Yes, I find MS's blatant disregard for the law to be offensive. I find Bernie Madoff's disregard for law offensive also. People with morals find that kind of dishonesty offensive. I guess you don't?

BTW, MS's suggested retail price for Server 2005 was $3000, the $1500 you quote is a "wholesale" price that small businesses and NPO's don't get.
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Old 01-15-2009, 04:57 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
 Yes, I find MS's blatant disregard for the law to be offensive. I find Bernie Madoff's disregard for law offensive also. People with morals find that kind of dishonesty offensive. I guess you don't?
The problem here is that the law itself may or may not be offensive. Bloodspray's point is that, in his opinion, antitrust laws (or at least some anti-trust laws, such as the ones that have been leveled against Microsoft), prevent the effective management of a business, so that to run your business "the way it's supposed to be run" you have to break the law. I happen to disagree with him, and think that the laws in question are perfectly just. But you can't just say "it's illegal and therefore wrong," because the law can, in some cases, be wrong.
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Old 01-15-2009, 05:14 AM   #28
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But you can't just say "it's illegal and therefore wrong," because the law can, in some cases, be wrong.
Have you ever seen the video of the hearings, or read the transcript? Bill Gates was caught lying several times, and the only reason he wasn't prosecuted for perjury is because a plea bargain was made.

If you disagree with a law, that doesn't mean you can simply ignore it.

And yes, monopolies are detrimental to capitalism, which relies on competition. MS knows full well that their monopolistic practices harm society and the economy, they just don't care because they get rich.

And Linux being free has nothing to do with it being a competitor. Most Distro's being used by businesses aren't free. Red Hat, and Suse are the most common in business, and neither is free for the Enterprise Editions.
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Old 01-15-2009, 05:33 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
 Have you ever seen the video of the hearings, or read the transcript? Bill Gates was caught lying several times, and the only reason he wasn't prosecuted for perjury is because a plea bargain was made.
I'm not arguing he's not done anything wrong, I find Microsoft's business practices to be both illegal and immoral.

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If you disagree with a law, that doesn't mean you can simply ignore it.
Granted.

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And yes, monopolies are detrimental to capitalism, which relies on competition. MS knows full well that their monopolistic practices harm society and the economy, they just don't care because they get rich.
That's a rather serious accusation to make. Most people like this tend to believe the rationalizations that they make to the rest of society (which does not, of course, make those rationalizations any less wrong).

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And Linux being free has nothing to do with it being a competitor. Most Distro's being used by businesses aren't free. Red Hat, and Suse are the most common in business, and neither is free for the Enterprise Editions.
[foot in mouth]Whoops. Didn't know that.[/foot in mouth]

In that case, then yes, Microsoft's licensing policy in this case is anti-competitive.
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Old 01-15-2009, 05:39 AM   #30
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I think something is becoming clear, which could possibly explain the incredible differences in opinion we've got here. The Windows proponents say that Windows is superior for many tasks in a large company with a huge budget, and possibly a large number of tech-phobic users. The Linux proponents say that Linux is superior for some low budget operations, and some tech-savvy individuals. There is no inherent conflict here, and I think it illustrates a fundamental truth: No system can ever hope to serve everyone's needs, because everyone is different.
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