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Old 07-28-2018, 12:15 AM   #1936
DaveS
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Originally Posted by GLS View Post
 So the problem is OV aft/TSM not matching? It can be TSM/HDP error, OV aft/OV-ET attach error, ET-OV attach/ET-SRB attach error, SRB-ET attach/SRB aft skirt error, or all of the above.
The above is correct. If you look you'll see that the carrier plates not matching up with the orbiter due to the orbiter sitting too high. That's what the white box shows, it shows where the aft ball fittings on the ET should be according to various documents.

---------- Post added 07-28-18 at 01:27 AM ---------- Previous post was 07-27-18 at 09:39 PM ----------

So I decided to check just how far off the current alignment is and it's much more than I ever thought it was. It's 45 cm and I don't know where that much of a misalignment could come from.

I have checked the MLP side again, and everything looks good there. The HDPs are flush with the blast decks as they should be. So no offset build up there. I'll check the aft SRB segments again to be sure that I didn't screw up there.

---------- Post added at 02:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 AM ----------

This is the schematic that I have used for the TSMs, as it has the XO coordinates for various points of the TSM: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yoi7t3xmii...M%204.jpg?dl=0

As you can see, the bottom of the TSM is at XO1744. The F/D is at XO1453.

The above schematic comes from this document: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...9760021185.pdf

Last edited by DaveS; 07-28-2018 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 07-28-2018, 09:13 AM   #1937
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Yeah.... that seems to be an "early" document, where they are testing a design, which could have changed between 1976 and 77-78 when the TSMs where built. The GVA was only added to the pad design in 1979, so diagrams that pre-date the hardware should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Old 07-28-2018, 04:23 PM   #1938
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 Yeah.... that seems to be an "early" document, where they are testing a design, which could have changed between 1976 and 77-78 when the TSMs where built. The GVA was only added to the pad design in 1979, so diagrams that pre-date the hardware should be taken with a grain of salt.
This is true but everything does line up, with the coordinates being correct. Even the HAER document on MLP-3 states that the height of the TSMs are 31'.
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Old 07-28-2018, 04:27 PM   #1939
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And how are things at the top-end of the stack? Is there any info on the OAA, GVA and ETVAS positions, and do they fit the vehicle?
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Old 07-28-2018, 04:59 PM   #1940
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 And how are things at the top-end of the stack? Is there any info on the OAA, GVA and ETVAS positions, and do they fit the vehicle?
I got this updated version from a rather detailed document on the STS facilities and operations at KSC, dated 1984: https://www.dropbox.com/s/g7dawf7rau...matic.jpg?dl=0


And as you can see, the orbiter coordinate control system also places the MLP 0-level at XO1744.
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Old 07-28-2018, 05:36 PM   #1941
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Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
 I got this updated version from a rather detailed document on the STS facilities and operations at KSC, dated 1984: https://www.dropbox.com/s/g7dawf7rau...matic.jpg?dl=0


And as you can see, the orbiter coordinate control system also places the MLP 0-level at XO1744.
And placing the stack on the MLP, does it match the FSS arms? Do the tips of the SRBs and ET match the locations on the diagram?
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Old 07-28-2018, 05:47 PM   #1942
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 And placing the stack on the MLP, does it match the FSS arms? Do the tips of the SRBs and ET match the locations on the diagram?
Everything pad related except for the new MLP are incorrecly sized, even the concrete hardstand. So, nothing lines up with each other as only the MLP is based on actual dimensions. Which is why the GH2 vent arm is buried in the intertank section of the IT and below the ETCA on the ET.
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Old 07-28-2018, 06:18 PM   #1943
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 Everything pad related except for the new MLP are incorrecly sized, even the concrete hardstand. So, nothing lines up with each other as only the MLP is based on actual dimensions. Which is why the GH2 vent arm is buried in the intertank section of the IT and below the ETCA on the ET.
OK, so what about the tips of the SRBs and ET, do they match the locations on the last diagram?
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Old 07-28-2018, 06:31 PM   #1944
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 OK, so what about the tips of the SRBs and ET, do they match the locations on the last diagram?
I can't check because everything is off. Since the hardstand is off that leads to everything being off. It's wrong from the bottom up.
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Old 07-28-2018, 06:39 PM   #1945
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 I can't check because everything is off. Since the hardstand is off that leads to everything being off. It's wrong from the bottom up.
I'm jsut talking about the stack, the FSS, etc don't matter. Do the distances between the MLP and the tips of the OV, ET and SRBs match the diagram?
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:00 PM   #1946
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 I'm jsut talking about the stack, the FSS, etc don't matter. Do the distances between the MLP and the tips of the OV, ET and SRBs match the diagram?
The problem is that I don't have those relations. Everything is listed in the local coordinate system, for the ET it's the ET coordinate system, for the boosters, it's SRB coordinate system being used. For the pad, it's pad coordinate system which lists things in elevation only not X, Y and Z.
Nothing is listed with differentials between each coordinate system. These schematics are the only ones I have ever found that lists something else besides the local coordinate system:

SRB/ET FWD attach fitting: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vxfdri8whk...tting.jpg?dl=0
ET/OV bipod: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t5scp5w0ny...Bipod.jpg?dl=0
ET/OV aft attachments: https://www.dropbox.com/s/usklpunf1n...ments.jpg?dl=0

That's all of it.
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:16 PM   #1947
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Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
 The problem is that I don't have those relations. Everything is listed in the local coordinate system, for the ET it's the ET coordinate system, for the boosters, it's SRB coordinate system being used. For the pad, it's pad coordinate system which lists things in elevation only not X, Y and Z.
Nothing is listed with differentials between each coordinate system. These schematics are the only ones I have ever found that lists something else besides the local coordinate system:

SRB/ET FWD attach fitting: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vxfdri8whk...tting.jpg?dl=0
ET/OV bipod: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t5scp5w0ny...Bipod.jpg?dl=0
ET/OV aft attachments: https://www.dropbox.com/s/usklpunf1n...ments.jpg?dl=0

That's all of it.
From the diagram
Code:
MLP 0 = 95'0'' = 28.956m

SHUTTLE/MLP CONTROL = 130'7'' = 39.8018m
OV tip = 220'9'' = 67.2846m
SRB tip = 240'2'' = 73.2028m
ET tip = 274'8.25'' = 83.72475m
So if you assemble the stack on the MLP, and subtacting the MLP 0 value above from the other values, you can check if the position of the tips.

Plus, there are conversion data between the pad and the rest of the "parts", on the top left corner of the diagram.
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:25 PM   #1948
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Originally Posted by GLS View Post
 From the diagram
Code:
MLP 0 = 95'0'' = 28.956m

SHUTTLE/MLP CONTROL = 130'7'' = 39.8018m
OV tip = 220'9'' = 67.2846m
SRB tip = 240'2'' = 73.2028m
ET tip = 274'8.25'' = 83.72475m
So if you assemble the stack on the MLP, and subtacting the MLP 0 value above from the other values, you can check if the position of the tips.

Plus, there are conversion data between the pad and the rest of the "parts", on the top left corner of the diagram.
Are you using the listed X0 values? Remember, that's not the physical tip of anything. The physical tip for the ET, which is the lightning spike on the nose cone is located 327.207 inches aft of the XT0 point. OV XO0 is 235 inches forward of the nosecap. The nose cones on the SRBs, are 200 inches aft of XS0.


So each X0 point is always located in thin air, not touching any hardware. Only the MLP has a physical 0 point which is the bottom of actual platform, the B deck.
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Old 07-28-2018, 08:53 PM   #1949
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 Are you using the listed X0 values? Remember, that's not the physical tip of anything. The physical tip for the ET, which is the lightning spike on the nose cone is located 327.207 inches aft of the XT0 point. OV XO0 is 235 inches forward of the nosecap. The nose cones on the SRBs, are 200 inches aft of XS0.


So each X0 point is always located in thin air, not touching any hardware. Only the MLP has a physical 0 point which is the bottom of actual platform, the B deck.
I'm running out of arguments...
Can't you assemble the meshes in the editor (MLP, SRBs, ET and OV) and then measure the distance between the tips of the vehicle and the MLP 0 level, so those distances can be compared to the values I posted?
E.g., the tip of the ET should be 83.72475m - 28.956m = 54.76875m above the MLP 0 level.
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Old 07-28-2018, 09:29 PM   #1950
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Originally Posted by GLS View Post
 I'm running out of arguments...
Can't you assemble the meshes in the editor (MLP, SRBs, ET and OV) and then measure the distance between the tips of the vehicle and the MLP 0 level, so those distances can be compared to the values I posted?
E.g., the tip of the ET should be 83.72475m - 28.956m = 54.76875m above the MLP 0 level.
Something to note about the elevations listed on the schematic: They're true up to the pad surface but then they get weird. The elevations listed are the FSS Level designations, not their true elevations. The elevation of the 75' level (the first physical level after the pad surface) is 27' above the pad surface. Each level after it is spaced exactly 20' apart.

This comes from the time each level of the FSS was part of the old Saturn Launcher Umbilical Towers where the three first levels had vertical spacing of 30' (so, 30, 60 and 90) and then it was 20' vertical spacing between the levels.
For the shuttle, to align the FSS with the MLP, they created a new 27' high level that never existed before and then stacked carefully chosen levels from the old Saturn LUTs on top of that new 27' level, creating the shuttle FSS (then called the Space Shuttle Access Tower, SSAT).
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