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Old 01-14-2009, 03:33 AM   #1
Usquanigo
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Lightbulb OS WARS MEGA THREAD (Now debating proprietary vs. open-source!)

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Originally Posted by Sherrif of Nottingham View Post
 Other than that it really runs smoother and more... (dare I say) beautiful... It reminds me of a mac almost...
I sure hope not. That's not only an oxymoron, but the last thing in the world I want to see is for Windows to become as pretentious, insulting, stubborn and limiting as Mac OS.

I'm surprised to hear you guys griping about Vista. It rocks. Stable, fast (with a crappy video and sound card but otherwise identical specs it runs every bit as fast as my XP Pro system (which has the much more powerful video and sound card)), and looks awesome. Hell I miss it when I'm on my XP system.

Then again, some of these other guys were having malware issues with IE and Firefox here today, and I just don't. Would be odd if I was really doing something all that special..... :unsure:

Last edited by tl8; 06-16-2010 at 06:52 AM.
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Old 01-14-2009, 04:00 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Bloodspray View Post
 I sure hope not. That's not only an oxymoron, but the last thing in the world I want to see is for Windows to become as pretentious, insulting, stubborn and limiting as Mac OS.
That's funny, I thought that's what clippy, those stupid balloons, and various other misfeatures were all about. If you want a non-insulting operating system that doesn't throw up any barriers to messing with it's internals, but lays it all out in the open, try GNU/Linux...*ducks and runs away*
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Old 01-14-2009, 04:30 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
 That's funny, I thought that's what clippy, those stupid balloons, and various other misfeatures were all about. If you want a non-insulting operating system that doesn't throw up any barriers to messing with it's internals, but lays it all out in the open, try GNU/Linux...*ducks and runs away*


"Clippy" goes away and never comes back after hte first time it pops up in Office. The "balloons" are basically tool tips, are a non-issue, really never come up except when appropriate, and can be turned of (for certain things at least). Have you ever REALLY used Windows for more than 5 seconds? Or are you just a hardcore slave to the Linux cult? (you will find that I don't bother with ripping on Linux because I have nothing against it, it's pointless on the whole (because EVERYTHING works on Windows, so I'm not going to waste my time or drive space dual booting, been there, done that, it sucks, not gonna do it again), but that doesn't mean it's "bad" (as in evil) in any way)

Windows is not limiting in the least - 1, everything runs on it. 2, it's extremely configurable. and most importantly, 3, there's about a dozen different ways to do just about EVERYthing in Windows.

MacOS is limiting because they have very few ways of doing things. You do it THEIR way, because they are the mighty Apple and they know better than you. (nevermind the lack of software compared to what's available for real computers) And it's insulting for that very reason, the whole basis is "we know YOU'RE an idiot, so here's a computer that even YOU can use". And they lie, it crashes frequently, it's NOT easier (just different), it's not truly at home on a network (though with 10 they have gotten a lot better), and they are hardcore on the snob side as well.

It's funny how you guys never miss an opportunity to take shots at Windows, but you don't see us doing that sort of stuff in reverse (except when challenged). Just sayin'........
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Old 01-14-2009, 05:38 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Bloodspray View Post
 

"Clippy" goes away and never comes back after hte first time it pops up in Office.
Actually, if you do a custom install, like we did with this most recent computer we bought, he need never show up. He's still annoying and will still scar you for life and haunt your dreams if you even see him once. The very thought of him is annoying.

As for other settings in Windows, yes they can be configured, but the problem is that, unless your job involves installing and setting up Windows on a regular basis, once you've set them that way you forget about them until the next time you install Windows. Then the whole OS is annoying again and you have to remember how you changed them on the last install (I've memorized a few of the ones that most irritate me, but there are a thousand little things). And just when you think you've turned off all of your pet peeves, another one crawls out of the woodwork just to remind you that it exists.

I think I'll agree that Windows isn't "limiting," but it's always struck me as pretentious, insulting, and a wee bit stubborn.

Now, one of the things that really got my gander up about Windows, once upon a time, was ScanDisk. 9 times out of 10, if it ran on startup, it was not because you had negligently shut it down without improperly, but because the computer had frozen, bluescreened, or otherwise become so unstable that you couldn't shut it down properly. But the message it displayed was something along the lines of "you did not shut down your computer properly. ScanDisk will now check your disk for errors" (emphasis mine). This was back on the DOS Kernel versions of Windows, which locked up and bluescreened annoyingly often. A better message would have been "I'm sorry, but our hideously unstable operating system crashed again. ScanDisk will now check to make sure we did not screw up your hard drive too badly."

If ScanDisk wasn't insulting and pretentious, I don't know what was. Fortunately they managed to push disk maintenance into the background on NT Kernel Windows versions, and the home editions from XP on have been NT Kernel OS's. That's one of the few things that has become *less* insulting and pretentious about Windows over the years.

Last edited by Linguofreak; 01-14-2009 at 05:39 AM. Reason: Fixed tag
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Old 01-14-2009, 05:45 AM   #5
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Default PC MEGA Thread(Windows VS Linux VS Mac)

In order to reduce the amount of Off Topic posts in other threads, any posts that deal with the OS wars will be moved here.
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Old 01-14-2009, 05:58 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Linguofreak View Post
 As for other settings in Windows, yes they can be configured, but the problem is that, unless your job involves installing and setting up Windows on a regular basis, once you've set them that way you forget about them until the next time you install Windows. Then the whole OS is annoying again and you have to remember how you changed them on the last install (I've memorized a few of the ones that most irritate me, but there are a thousand little things). And just when you think you've turned off all of your pet peeves, another one crawls out of the woodwork just to remind you that it exists.
Such as? I DO install and maintain Windows for a living (client and server, among other things (other OS's, protocols, policies, hardware, etc, etc, etc)), and I don't ever both with custom installs, nor even much configuration that I can think of after the fact. Either it's all just THAT automated (my install/config process) or I really have no idea what you guys are on about. lol


Quote:
I think I'll agree that Windows isn't "limiting," but it's always struck me as pretentious, insulting, and a wee bit stubborn.
Disagree. It always just sat there. Always trying to offer more, never really forcing itself upon you like MacOS did (and I mean it's entire evolution, back to 1.0). The closest it got was the XP default Fisher-Price interface, but turn that off and you're golden. But the people who can't do that, are the people it's meant to be used by.


Quote:
Now, one of the things that really got my gander up about Windows, once upon a time, was ScanDisk. 9 times out of 10, if it ran on startup, it was not because you had negligently shut it down without improperly, but because the computer had frozen, bluescreened, or otherwise become so unstable that you couldn't shut it down properly. But the message it displayed was something along the lines of "you did not shut down your computer properly. ScanDisk will now check your disk for errors" (emphasis mine). This was back on the DOS Kernel versions of Windows, which locked up and bluescreened annoyingly often. A better message would have been "I'm sorry, but our hideously unstable operating system crashed again. ScanDisk will now check to make sure we did not screw up your hard drive too badly."

If ScanDisk wasn't insulting and pretentious, I don't know what was. Fortunately they managed to push disk maintenance into the background on NT Kernel Windows versions, and the home editions from XP on have been NT Kernel OS's. That's one of the few things that has become *less* insulting and pretentious about Windows over the years.
lol, funny but I never really noticed it. Yes, it did run, however, I don't recall the "you did not shut down your computer properly", I seem to remember something more along the lines of "Windows was not shut down properly". Which is true, regardless of cause.

And to listen to you guys, you were blue-screening every 30 seconds. Were you using alpha drivers from incompetent HaXoRz made for hardware soldered by monkeys in sweat shops in timbuktu or something? Crashes were more on the rare side for me than anything. And the kicker is.... I never really did anything special to keep it going. It's really not that hard, just use it and it works. lol (of course, the 9x kernel wasn't exactly good, NT5 (2K) onward was much better in every way, and only keeps getting better with each version.

Just like with IE. Even in that motivator thread, people were talking about malware issues, wasn't a problem for me. And that's pretty much always the case. Heck, I didn't even use anti-virus until about 4 years ago, and I had broadband (cable) for about 4+ years prior to that. (though I DO shut down my system every night) I never got hit. I only started using it after I had a scare, and just left it on, since I got auth to use a spare license from work (as it IS used for work almost every night anyway, while tunneled in).

It's this kind of disparity that makes me think this stuff is truly overblown, just for it's own sake.


-----Post Added-----


Quote:
Originally Posted by tl8 View Post
 In order to reduce the amount of Off Topic posts in other threads, any posts that deal with the OS wars will be moved here.
::: sigh ::: It really WAS on topic, someone just had to come in and take a pot shot. I don't think it was really that far out of place to respond.

And now the person I quoted at the top won't see my question or comment.
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Old 01-14-2009, 06:43 AM   #7
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Yes I have used Windows for more than 5 seconds (6 or 7 years, more or less), though I admit, nothing more recent than XP (though I've seen Vista, and the majority of users I've talked to dislike it, and I know at least 1 personally who "downgraded" to XP). And in my defense, you did take a shot at Mac OS before I took one at Windows.

While I admit that I can make clippy go away, and after a registry hack (or was it in gpedit.msc?) the funny baloons that pop up out of the system tray too, Windows just kept throwing up dumb things like that. There was the business of "We're hiding this files because Microsoft doesn't think you know what you're doing in the Windows directory", and also that whenever I sit down at another computer, I need to go to the view menu in Explorer, click a couple of other things, and get it to tell me what the file extensions of things actually are, rather than trying (and often failing) to guess what the file type is. Also, I'll be quite impressed if you can make a windows installation boot to a command line only interface by default, for low end systems where you don't want to wait 30 seconds for everything (like old P3 sitting on my desk next to this computer). That's rather limiting. Another thing I'll be impressed by: take a computer running windows, and use tools found by default on the computer to change the file extensions of 3000 files from .txt to .csv (or some other equivalent task) in under an hour, 6000 clicks, and 3000 keystrokes. And how about the limits on how many different computers you can install it on? Or the limits on your access to the source code? And while I wouldn't be flabbergasted (I don't know for sure, I've never seen User Account Control in action), I would be surprised if anything in Windows gives control as fine grained as sudo. That would be limiting on a multiuser system. What about something like kickstart files, for automatic installation on large numbers of machines? I like being able to do strange things with my computer, and if as a result, Microsoft's products don't serve my needs, then so be it, there are excellent (and cheaper) alternatives.

Just don't bash other people's favorite systems and promote your own without being prepared for others to do the same to yours.
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Old 01-14-2009, 06:59 AM   #8
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Wait wait wait...scarecrow, are you seriously complaining about Windows because it's not as nerd-friendly as Linux?

Um...duh?
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Old 01-14-2009, 07:07 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Hielor View Post
 Wait wait wait...scarecrow, are you seriously complaining about Windows because it's not as nerd-friendly as Linux?

Um...duh?
Yes, precisely! I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Old 01-14-2009, 07:09 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Bloodspray View Post
 lol, funny but I never really noticed it. Yes, it did run, however, I don't recall the "you did not shut down your computer properly", I seem to remember something more along the lines of "Windows was not shut down properly". Which is true, regardless of cause.
There was one version of scandisk that I recall that wasn't quite as insulting as the others, but I can't remember precisely what it said.

Quote:
And to listen to you guys, you were blue-screening every 30 seconds. Were you using alpha drivers from incompetent HaXoRz made for hardware soldered by monkeys in sweat shops in timbuktu or something? Crashes were more on the rare side for me than anything. And the kicker is.... I never really did anything special to keep it going. It's really not that hard, just use it and it works. lol (of course, the 9x kernel wasn't exactly good, NT5 (2K) onward was much better in every way, and only keeps getting better with each version.
Well, depending what I was doing with it anywhere from once a week to a few times a day. Gaming tended to make the instability much worse, but I don't think we were using any dodgy drivers or hardware.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to blame the instability on the OS, simply because I'm still using many of the same programs now that we have Win2k and XP, and I can't remember the last lock-up I had, and the only bluescreen I can recall was when I was having those driver problems with Orbiter on our new machine right after we got it.

Another place where I have to admit Windows has improved.

But no matter how stable it is, I still find it insulting. Maybe that's just because, with the mass availability of computers, the whole industry has found it profitable to cater to the lowest common denominator of their market.

Quote:
Just like with IE. Even in that motivator thread, people were talking about malware issues, wasn't a problem for me. And that's pretty much always the case. Heck, I didn't even use anti-virus until about 4 years ago, and I had broadband (cable) for about 4+ years prior to that. (though I DO shut down my system every night) I never got hit. I only started using it after I had a scare, and just left it on, since I got auth to use a spare license from work (as it IS used for work almost every night anyway, while tunneled in).
Security is almost as much a matter of browsing habits and Anti-virus/anti-spyware software as it is OS. With responsible browsing and our security package, we don't often pick up viruses on my end either.

In addition to the factor of being less of a target, I think one of the things that may contribute to Linux being more secure is just that the type of people that use it may just be more tech-savvy and responsible than the average Windows user.
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Old 01-14-2009, 11:39 AM   #11
RisingFury
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Windows 7 Requirements Leaked.
For the Basic Windows 7
* 1 GHz 32-bit (x86) or 64-bit (x64) processor
* 512 MB of system memory
* 20 GB hard drive with at least 15 GB of available space
* Support for DirectX 9 graphics and 32 MB of graphics memory
* DVD-ROM drive
* Audio Output
* Internet access (fees may apply)

Are these really the requirements? If they are, it's good Microsoft finally realized you shouldn't need a supercomputer to run your OS.
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Old 01-14-2009, 12:06 PM   #12
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No, those are not entirely correct.


Minimum recommended specs call for:

1 GHz 32-bit or 64-bit processor
1 GB of system memory
16 GB of available disk space
Support for DirectX 9 graphics with 128 MB memory (to enable the Aero theme)
DVD-R/W Drive
Internet access (to download the Beta and get updates)

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/win...-download.aspx

Still not too bad.

Edit:

You may be right after all, if those reqs are for the basic version. The Beta is currently only of the Ultimate version.
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Old 01-14-2009, 07:34 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by TR1978 View Post
 No, those are not entirely correct.


Minimum recommended specs call for:

1 GHz 32-bit or 64-bit processor
1 GB of system memory
16 GB of available disk space
Support for DirectX 9 graphics with 128 MB memory (to enable the Aero theme)
DVD-R/W Drive
Internet access (to download the Beta and get updates)

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/win...-download.aspx

Still not too bad.

Edit:

You may be right after all, if those reqs are for the basic version. The Beta is currently only of the Ultimate version.

Still a good scale back from Vista. I might give this a try.
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Old 01-14-2009, 07:51 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by TR1978 View Post
 Minimum recommended specs call for:

1 GHz 32-bit or 64-bit processor
1 GB of system memory
16 GB of available disk space
Support for DirectX 9 graphics with 128 MB memory (to enable the Aero theme)
DVD-R/W Drive
Internet access (to download the Beta and get updates)

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/win...-download.aspx

Still not too bad.
Not too bad?!
How scalable will it be? I know you can do cool things with the high-end machines (even microsoft can), but what are the system requirements with
  • High-end settings (sure(*) you can go as high as you want, but I mean the resources used by the OS; anything more is available for the apps)
  • Default settings
  • Minimum settings where it can run all applications
  • Minimum GUI settings
  • Minimum text-mode settings
And how will it compare to windows XP? And to windows NT? And, OK, to Linux (say, the latest Debian or Ubuntu)?

When I bought it, my laptop had 256MB RAM and Windows XP installed. It was a bit slow, but it worked (now I have 1280MB). And Windows XP only needs 2GB disk space. And doesn't need a high-end video card (SVGA will do).

(*) OTOH you never know. 640k limit & so on...
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Old 01-14-2009, 08:47 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
 Yes I have used Windows for more than 5 seconds (6 or 7 years, more or less), though I admit, nothing more recent than XP (though I've seen Vista, and the majority of users I've talked to dislike it, and I know at least 1 personally who "downgraded" to XP). And in my defense, you did take a shot at Mac OS before I took one at Windows.

Just don't bash other people's favorite systems and promote your own without being prepared for others to do the same to yours.
And you're a linux guy (as in, not a Mac guy), and I was referring to linux when making that final comment. Seems more like you want free reign to crap all over anything M$ and would really prefer that nobody said anything in it's defense, at all, ever, for any reason.

BTW - as I've said before, Windows is NOT my "favorite" OS. I don't have one. Closest I *did* have was BeOS, it was just cool, but nobody supported it and it died. There again is the Mac (and apparently even Linux) snob cult - it's not an appliance, or a car, or a prized posession, it's a freakin' computer, it runs applications and plays games. It's a Leatherman, not a car or accessory.


Quote:
While I admit that I can make clippy go away, and after a registry hack (or was it in gpedit.msc?) the funny baloons that pop up out of the system tray too
And yet you choose to focus on that like it's some kind of significant thing.


Quote:
Windows just kept throwing up dumb things like that.
....And then proceed to be vague in further complaining.


Quote:
There was the business of "We're hiding this files because Microsoft doesn't think you know what you're doing in the Windows directory", and also that whenever I sit down at another computer, I need to go to the view menu in Explorer, click a couple of other things, and get it to tell me what the file extensions of things actually are, rather than trying (and often failing) to guess what the file type is.
This is done partly to help clean up the directory views, partly because it was requested by the bulk of users. If it was forced upon you, you might have a complaint, but it's just a setting that is a few clicks away. Laziness is no justification for hatred. (and by the by, most of the system (hidden) files are of no real use anyway, even though I always show all files and make that the new default on my installs, I never actually bother to DO anything with them, just no need)

Icons show file type. You can see what's executable, what's data, and what app will open. Also you can even tell that by the file name (sans extension) most of the time too if you really look at it. It's not that hard.

When you have to deal with multitudes of end user's PCs you spend a lot of time looking at the view you are hating on. Sometimes it's not just the PC that needs to be flexible, but the user. (and isn't that what's supposed to separate us from the end users? )


Quote:
Also, I'll be quite impressed if you can make a windows installation boot to a command line only interface by default, for low end systems where you don't want to wait 30 seconds for everything (like old P3 sitting on my desk next to this computer). That's rather limiting.
95 could do it. Since then, who cares? I have a P4 3.2GHz with 2GB of RAM and a GF6600 at home (same thing with an ancient Radeon at work). Those are old (got the home system in 04). I just spec'd out a new Dell for the secretaries up front and it's a Core2Duo 3.16GHz with 3GB of RAM, a 256MB Radeon, a 320GB drive, a 22" widescreen LCD, Office 07 (standard), Acrobat (Full, Standard), a 750Va APC UPS, and 3 years of hardware warranty for $1400. That was upgrading from a base of about $750 (which still included all that hardware sans UPS).

Furthermore, 2K works just fine on "older systems", but that's assuming you can actually find a use for something that old other than being a paper weight or door stop.

Also, all the apps are GUI based, so booting to a command line would buy you pretty much nothing anyway.


Quote:
Another thing I'll be impressed by: take a computer running windows, and use tools found by default on the computer to change the file extensions of 3000 files from .txt to .csv (or some other equivalent task) in under an hour, 6000 clicks, and 3000 keystrokes.
A few lines in VBScript will do that, and Windows Script Host IS a tool that comes with Windows. (not that the pre-installed nature is of ANY consequence whatsoever) (And of course I'm sure that's a vital operation that you do every day or so too.....)


Quote:
And how about the limits on how many different computers you can install it on?
Legally, 1:1, but you'll find that to be the norm for just about any application (the most being either 1 desktop and 1 laptop, or unlimited with the use of a hardware key - grab Acrobat 9 and tell me how many machines you can successfully install and use it on).

Non-issue.


Quote:
Or the limits on your access to the source code?
Has nothing to do with actually using it. And as in the case of the mass re-name, I'm sure this is something you NEED to do every day, right? (and be careful about answering that, if "yes", then that highlights the limitations of your chosen platform)


Quote:
And while I wouldn't be flabbergasted (I don't know for sure, I've never seen User Account Control in action), I would be surprised if anything in Windows gives control as fine grained as sudo. That would be limiting on a multiuser system.
NT is MADE for multi-user setups and buisness networks. Security entirely integrated on every level, and particularly on an AD or even NT(4) Domain I have more fine control over users and resources than I'll ever have use for.


Quote:
What about something like kickstart files, for automatic installation on large numbers of machines?
Windows CAN be automated for mass installs. This is a major issue for large networks, and this has been around in one form or another since NT4 (at least). Additionally, there are a multitude of remote installation and imagine suites (Ghost, PowerDelpoy, Altiris, LANDesk, etc) for OS's, Apps, self-healing of Apps, updates, and even entire system images. (HP even had tech to push BIOS updates across the network to their desktops, haven't played with them in a while, but I'm sure they can still do that)


Quote:
I like being able to do strange things with my computer, and if as a result, Microsoft's products don't serve my needs, then so be it, there are excellent (and cheaper) alternatives.
Which doesn't invalidate, nor villify Windows in any way. It's funny, I've never seemed so pro-Windows in my life. But then, I've never met up with so many anti-M$ zealots either. As I keep saying, I'm no fanboi, I just get sick of seeing the falsehoods and unfounded hate spewed just because it's the cool thing to do.


-----Post Added-----


Quote:
Originally Posted by cjp View Post
 Not too bad?!
No, that's positively ancient. I have lots of those things sitting around, and the only reason they are sitting around is because they are useless.

The OS won't limit you with that hardware, it's trying to actually DO anything (as in apps) that will be the limiting factor there.


Quote:
And how will it compare to windows XP?
Vista Enterprise is EVERY BIT as fast as XP, WITH everything turned on. And I have nearly identical systems from which to make that claim (in fact, the Vista system has very old video card, unlike the XP system).


Quote:
And to windows NT?
How does a car compare with a rock? NT was good in it's day, still good if you have some ancient piece of server-side software that needs to run and have an NT Server CD to use with it. But otherwise..... put that rock on your pile of papers and get something that's actually useful (in modern times).


Quote:
When I bought it, my laptop had 256MB RAM and Windows XP installed. It was a bit slow, but it worked (now I have 1280MB). And Windows XP only needs 2GB disk space. And doesn't need a high-end video card (SVGA will do).
256MB is shallow even for the lightest OS if you really want to do anything cool with it. Games are a good indicator, most require more than that. The OS will run, via virutal RAM, but it won't be happy. Even something as simply as Acrobat Viewer and a large PDF will kill it. My P3 laptop with 512MB and Win 2K is a good example. Runs Office, Acrobat viewer, and can play YouTube videos, but large PDFs put a hurtin' on it. I have it only because it's free, and it's handy to have when out in the garage and needing to look up some torque specs or the like.
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