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Old 06-07-2019, 09:57 AM   #16
Notebook
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Never heard D-Day called Day of Deliverance before, obviously that's not the meaning!. There was also H-Hour in military parlance, I think.

Long way to go before Victory In Europe was declared, and it wasn't a certainty if the Red Army hadn't gone all the way to Berlin.
Obviously it wasn't liberation for the countries that came under Stalin's control.
Especially ironic for Poland for who Britain and France declared war on Germany and couldn't do anything after 1945.

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Old 06-07-2019, 10:46 AM   #17
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  Especially ironic for Poland for who Britain and France declared war on Germany and couldn't do anything after 1945.

Yes, for Poland, its hard to tell who was worse there: The Germans and Russians who invaded, or England and France, who betrayed them in Yalta.
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Old 06-07-2019, 10:55 AM   #18
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Betrayal is a harsh word, I think this sums up what I've read about that conference.

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Each of the three leaders had his own agenda for post-war Germany and liberated Europe. Roosevelt wanted Soviet support in the U.S. Pacific War against Japan, specifically for the planned invasion of Japan (Operation August Storm), as well as Soviet participation in the United Nations; Churchill pressed for free elections and democratic governments in Eastern and Central Europe (specifically Poland); and Stalin demanded a Soviet sphere of political influence in Eastern and Central Europe as an essential aspect of the USSR's national security strategy. Stalin's position at the conference was one which he felt was so strong that he could dictate terms. According to U.S. delegation member and future Secretary of State James F. Byrnes, "it was not a question of what we would let the Russians do, but what we could get the Russians to do."[8]
from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference

In practical terms there was little British or French troops could have done against the Red Army. Britain was worn out, France yet to reorganise its armed forces. America wanted USSR involved in the Pacific.

What could they have done?

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Old 06-07-2019, 11:06 AM   #19
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 What could they have done?

"We promised the Europeans freedom. It would be worse than dishonorable not to see that they have it. This might mean war with the Russians, but what of it? They have no air force, and their gasoline and ammunition supplies are low. I've seen their miserable supply trains; mostly wagons drawn by beaten up old horses or oxen. I'll say this; the Third Army alone and with damned few casualties, could lick what is left of the Russians in six weeks. You mark my words. Don't ever forget them. Someday we will have to fight them and it will take six years and cost us six million lives." -- George S. Patton





And of course:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable
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Old 06-07-2019, 11:15 AM   #20
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Never heard of that operation, not surprising really:
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The plan was taken by the British Chiefs of Staff Committee as militarily unfeasible due to an anticipated 2.5 to 1 superiority in divisions of Soviet land forces in Europe and the Middle East by 1 July, where the conflict was projected to take place.[5] The majority of any offensive operation would have been undertaken by American and British forces, as well as Polish forces and up to 10 divisions of the former German Wehrmacht, re-mobilized from POW status. Any quick success would be due to surprise alone. If a quick success could not be obtained before the onset of winter, the assessment was that the Allies would be committed to a protracted total war. In the report of 22 May 1945, an offensive operation was deemed "hazardous".

Luckily Patton wasn't a politician, so could say what he thought.

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Old 06-07-2019, 12:22 PM   #21
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  ...D. Day (Day of Deliverance)...

D-day and H-hour were standard military terms used to describe the day and hour that an operation would start and dates back to WWI. There were actually several "D-days" during WWII before Operation Overlord. After Overlord, the general public became aware of the term and calling the start of the Normandy Campaign as D-Day became commonplace. To avoid confusion, the military began using other designations. (A-Day, L-Day, X-Day).
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Old 06-07-2019, 12:24 PM   #22
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 Luckily Patton wasn't a politician, so could say what he thought.

Well, he couldn't. He got into trouble for MANY statements during and after the war.



Pattons assessment was pretty wrong (he did not see the better equipped units around Berlin, though they had really been far less well equipped than the western allies), but the key statement was right there: The time was then. Either you had been willed to fight then, when the situation was least bad. Or you have to accept defeat in that moment and a prolonged low-intensity conflict later. We got the cold war instead of a hot war.


And then remember how people felt about letting Germany into the NATO in 1955 and arm us again... a hot war against the USSR right after WW2 would have been impossible without arming the Germans again. (Because you had the pool of combat experienced trained people - it would have been very hard to reject all demands to use them)
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Old 06-07-2019, 01:13 PM   #23
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Fighting the Red Army in 1945 would have been suicidal, even with Patton in command.
I think the British Army might well have mutinied, they had been told they were fighting Hitler, not "Uncle Joe".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwa...utiny_01.shtml

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force_mutiny

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Old 06-07-2019, 02:05 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Notebook View Post
 Fighting the Red Army in 1945 would have been suicidal, even with Patton in command.
I think the British Army might well have mutinied, they had been told they were fighting Hitler, not "Uncle Joe".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwa...utiny_01.shtml

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force_mutiny

N.

Oh didn't know about those mutinies.



I just remember that the current German army was founded in secrecy, with planning starting just five years after WW2, under the poetic name "Dienststelle des Bevollmächtigten des Bundeskanzlers für die mit der Vermehrung der alliierten Truppen zusammenhängenden Fragen" (literally: Office of the commissioner of the federal chancellor for questions related to the multiplication of the allied troops), because the population was opposed to militarism after WW2.
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Old 06-07-2019, 02:34 PM   #25
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The mutinies aren't well know even in the UK. I only knew from Military History magazines, and they aren't reported much in them.
From a military history aspect I suppose they aren't that important.

Also, a General Election was held in July(just when the allies were attacking the Red Army) and Churchill and the Conservatives lost badly, Labour Party won.
People recognised that Churchill the War Leader wasn't ideal for post-war duty.

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Old 06-08-2019, 09:39 AM   #26
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Slightly related topic.

First time trooping of the colour is streamed live on BBC YouTube thing.
Didn't know they had one!
Runs till 13:00 BST, lots of marching around and shouting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DGN...ature=youtu.be

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