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Old 07-22-2014, 12:10 AM   #46
PeterRoss
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Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
 Beeing Dutch myself ( eventhough I now reside in the US) I am horrified by the course of events this has taken; the contamination of the crash site, the plundering of lugage from the deceased and most of all the treatment of my fellow countrymen ( and other nationalities) that regretfully perished in this barbaric action the russian separatist have chosen.

My sister whom still lives in Holland actually knew 2 people on board and is still in shock both by the loss of life and the aftermath.
Putin should be ashamed of the way he has acted over the last few days and the way he continues to brush off any wrong doing in this case.
What do you expect though from a former KGB dog........

I just hope the remains will finally be brought back to Holland ( and other nations) for the proper final respect these poor souls deserve.

What Putin did wrong about this exactly?
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Old 07-22-2014, 12:22 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by PeterRoss View Post
 What Putin did wrong about this exactly?
Really ???????
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Old 07-22-2014, 12:30 AM   #48
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 Really ???????
Really. What Putin did wrong about this exactly 'over the last few days'?
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Old 07-22-2014, 04:27 AM   #49
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For Russian speakers mostly (yet the image also speaks for itself): reporter Analoly Shariy (a Ukrainian political exile) is debunking a case of "plundering" which was widely used in medias in the anti-DPR campaign:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ilt8DLuu5Og

Given that Strelkov has no problems issuing death warrants for the plunderers discovered among the rebels, it's not too likely that any would risk to steal anything, especially in circumstances of high attention to the event:



The rest of noise around this is as much true-like as anything Ukro-media report these days.
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:42 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by SiberianTiger View Post
 The rest of noise around this is as much true-like as anything Ukro-media report these days.
I suppose they learned from the best lie/propaganda machine in the world.
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Old 07-22-2014, 07:24 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by PeterRoss View Post
 What Putin did wrong about this exactly?
Wrong sub-forum for that question. I recommend reading some NATO press conferences from June, about a tiny detail that was ignored by all media until MH17.
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Old 07-22-2014, 09:08 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Urwumpe View Post
 Wrong sub-forum for that question. I recommend reading some NATO press conferences from June, about a tiny detail that was ignored by all media until MH17.
So what?
Russian military held press conference just yesterday. There are plenty of little details your medias are ignoring too.
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Old 07-22-2014, 09:23 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by PeterRoss View Post
  So what?
Russian military held press conference just yesterday. There are plenty of little details your medias are ignoring too.
I have read about it. But that's not the forum for politics. That the Russian military claims to have seen a Su-25 plane, where no Su-25 plane went before (Service ceiling of 7000 meters)... that is better explained by the following quote:

"Bad people claim, that I have a weakness for alcohol, which I brew secretly on Earth and consume uncontrollably in space. God knows which kind of rumors exist. But so are humans. Believe worst nonsense more than facts.".

Yes, our Media is not always perfect. But I get the impression that, shouldn't I expect bad intents in the actions of the Russian government, an urgent visit at the Betty Ford clinic might be overdue for them.
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Old 07-22-2014, 10:07 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Urwumpe View Post
 I have read about it. But that's not the forum for politics. That the Russian military claims to have seen a Su-25 plane, where no Su-25 plane went before (Service ceiling of 7000 meters)...
Plane that was looking like Su-25 etc., let's get back to our basement.
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Old 07-22-2014, 10:09 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterRoss View Post
 Plane that was looking like Su-25 etc., let's get back to our basement.
Yes. It had a Su-25 sprite on the Russian radar scope.
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:10 PM   #56
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I have been too busy to follow all this as closely as I would have liked to and have obtained most of my updating right here on OF (this thread and the basement Ukraine thread). Thanks for that, first off, as the detail and analysis is making more sense here than on the news tid-bits I am managing to see.

Though my initial response was a guffaw on hearing the allegations to the effect that a Frogfoot might have shot down MH17, the capability does non-the-less exist with a pair of Aphids, short range IR-AAMs as they are. However - and it is a huge however - the window in which these weapons could be brought to bear effectively in this situation depends on too many factors being "just right", so it is highly improbable.

I had the opportunity to have an interesting chat on the subject with an ex FAE A-37 pilot yesterday (he's a civilian A-319 Commander now), who flew in the Cenepa War. The biggest hammer on the head of the SU-25 "conjecture" is simply - training. Good GCI does not happen by magic, and requires high levels situational awareness from both the vectoring radar operator and the pilot being vectored. Ground attack pilots are not trained for GCI (unless this is different in the Russian and Ukranian forces, but I doubt it). And good GCI, superhuman in fact, would have been necessary for it to work in this case.

On the contrary, ground attack pilots are trained for disciplined formation procedures, return route re-group, attack profiles in coordination with other elements of the flight, and such, with minimum radio chatter, as possible intercepts of transmissions have the potential to give away their bearing, much like VDF is used deliberately for civilian aircraft locating purposes. Furthermore, these pilots are not "geared up" for rapid interpretation of a few vectors and relative position reports to quickly update an interception mental picture of fast moving targets and respond accordingly to it, from what I understand. If anything, they are trained to avoid interception based on any cues!

And obviously, neither do they operate at high levels in their normal role, nor, as discussed, is the type ideal for the intercept of high/fast contacts, performance-wise. Even from the best initial position possible, with a "switched on" jockey reacting immediately - and what is more, appropriately - the event would degenerate into a stern chase at dissimilar altitudes with little chance of (*cough*) "success" in a very quickly closing, diminutive window of opportunity. The whole idea fringes on being totally preposterous.

On another subject, I understand the preliminary examination of the wreckage has now produced some evidence of fragmentation blast damage coincident with the size warhead of an SA-11/SA-17. Any truth in this? Opinions here?
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:18 PM   #57
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Where did you see the Su-25 theory? I haven't seen that anywhere...
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:24 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Hielor View Post
 Where did you see the Su-25 theory? I haven't seen that anywhere...
Statement by a spokesman of the Russian ministry of defense and popular CT in the Russian media.

Quote:
(3) An Ukrainian Su-25 military aircraft was detected at 17:19 to the right of MH17 moving at 400 km/h at 10000 meters. It was a few kilometers behind MH17 at 17:20, then did a left U-turn and flew away.

(4) At 17:20 MH17 started to loose speed and at 17:23 disappeared from radar.
Is pretty stupid, since the service ceiling of a Su-25 is 7000 meters without weapons and 5000 meters with maximum payload.
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:55 PM   #59
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It can be found here http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-c...sia-questions/ It says that a slow and heavy armored plane that was made for ground support and that has maximum altitude of 7000 meters and speed 950 kmph equipped with old IR guided short range R60 air-to-air rockets with a range about 8km, shot down MH17 at 10000 meters and speed 900 kmph. Difference in damage from IR guided R60 and radar guided Buk missile should be obvious for experts on the crash site - IR should explode near engines, while Buk rocket should explode somewhere near nose. (if it was flying towards the airliner)
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Old 07-23-2014, 05:55 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Glider View Post
 Difference in damage from IR guided R60 and radar guided Buk missile should be obvious for experts on the crash site - IR should explode near engines, while Buk rocket should explode somewhere near nose. (if it was flying towards the airliner)
That is not so easy, since also a Buk could explode anywhere around the aircraft depending on trajectory.

But what you can detect is the number and size of the shrapnel, also you can find indications of the burst of the warhead and how far this spread out. A smaller warhead has burst damage only in a very small region of the aircraft, often even none, while something of the size of a Buk warhead could easily create burst damage over an 8 m wide region.

Also, a R-60 Aphid has a 3 kg expanding rod warhead, not a fragmentation warhead: An expanding rod warhead causes damage confined to a very narrow disk and literally cuts through aircraft structure. Such a warhead does not create the shotgun effect seen on the aircraft debris, but rather a single cut.

Like that:



You can see, the very distinctive damage pattern there.

---------- Post added 07-23-14 at 07:55 PM ---------- Previous post was 07-22-14 at 09:05 PM ----------

Experts of the Netherlands have found no signs of manipulation on the flight recorders, the memory units are all intact.

What ever the contents of the recorders will be, they will be trustworthy.
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