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Old 05-06-2019, 04:24 PM   #91
Face
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 Agreed. But for me with the Interstellar System stuff and Space 1999 sure I can update for 2016 but would have to remove all UMMU stuff
Sure, but please also speak out the reason for this loud and clear: UMmu is closed source, and the author does not want to update it for 2016. You were happy enough to jump on the band-wagon without thinking about the consequences of being locked-in. Remember the peer-pressure "does it have UMmu"? That is what I mean with culture.

If you have one where people don't touch things like SC3 or UMmu precisely because it is too much lock-in, and instead support folks like fred18 or Woo who work on more open platforms, you would not have that dilemma.
But as it was for a long time - and still is now - it is exactly the opposite. Dammit, there is even a kind of zombie obedience regarding things like SC3.

I for one welcome our new terrain overlord and will not look back at 2010. God, it's soon a decade old.
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Old 05-06-2019, 04:44 PM   #92
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Agreed closed source is an issue.

BUT most of not all the work is volunteer. By open source I think you mean the code is included, right
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:20 PM   #93
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 BUT most of not all the work is volunteer. By open source I think you mean the code is included, right
Why is the fact that the work is volunteer a big BUT?

Open source is not only that the code is included, but also that you can modify it and share this modifications. In a way, even Orbiter's code is available: the machine code. I was able to read it and understand certain aspects of Orbiter's internals. However, I am not allowed to change this code and share the changed version with others, e.g. to put a new API callback into it in order to make collision detection tile loading modifiable.
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:27 PM   #94
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 Why is the fact that the work is volunteer a big BUT?
Oh thanks
For me it is because perhaps the standard might be less than a paid pro job. Just my thoughts
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:32 PM   #95
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 For me it is because perhaps the standard might be less than a paid pro job.
Huh? What does this have to do with closed-source vs. open-source view points? It is not like people get paid for developing Orbiter addons, where it would make sense to bring this as a BUT.
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:35 PM   #96
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I am so hoping VB will replace SC3.
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:39 PM   #97
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 Huh? What does this have to do with closed-source vs. open-source view points? It is not like people get paid for developing Orbiter addons, where it would make sense to bring this as a BUT.
Not sure. But I see your point. If all the addons were open and allowed to change. That might be nice.


So how to make that happen on stuff I make?
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:59 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by gattispilot View Post
 If all the addons were open and allowed to change. That might be nice.


So how to make that happen on stuff I make?
First of all: abandon closed source middle ware. Stop developing for SC3/4, OS, UMmu, UCGO, and whatever closed source thing there is, no matter how shiny it might be. If available, choose the open-source alternative, if not available, do as if there is no such thing at all.

Be clear about why you do not use a certain closed source platform. If fans complain, explain why sticking to this will actually slow down development in the long run. If they don't understand, explain the SC3 debacle. If they still don't understand, explain the OS debacle. If they still nag you, ignore them.

Support folks like fred18 as best as you can. Create your addon exclusively for their open platforms, and be loud about why you do it. If it is not immediately showing the feature you absolutely want, help by means of contributing code, no matter how crude you might think it is.

Nobody will make this change for you, you have to do it for yourself.
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Old 05-06-2019, 06:13 PM   #99
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Thanks.

But as a developer how do I make it open source and sharable.
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Old 05-06-2019, 06:18 PM   #100
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 But as a developer how do I make it open source and sharable.
By expressing your will in the documentation. Most call it a license. There are many different open source licenses out there that you could take as inspiration, one particulary simple one being the MIT license.
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Old 05-06-2019, 07:37 PM   #101
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 Agreed closed source is an issue.

At least for frameworks and middleware. There it should be mandatory, unless it is YOUR own framework or YOUR own middleware. I could know what is inside the XR-series, but don't really care as long as it works.


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  BUT most of not all the work is volunteer. By open source I think you mean the code is included, right

Not to get this wrong. It is not about being unthankful about the voluntary contribution to the community. I know the tone of the discussion goes easily in that direction, but its sure not meant to be that way.

It is just: Basing your own add-ons on the closed source work of somebody else was a risk and that risk now got invoked.



Also, open source is not the same as including the source code. Open source is also the permission to continue work with that source code, modify it and release it again. And thus, it is more than just the source code, but also a work ethic: You develop your add-on with the other and later developers in mind. You write more comments, document your work processes, explain decisions better than you would do for closed-source work. All to make sure, your work can go on with other people arriving and to make sure even decades later, people will know your intentions and vision and respect it.




The show must go on.
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Old 05-07-2019, 01:14 PM   #102
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I too support the notion of open source but limited for usage on Orbiter, no use elsewhere. I don't want my meshes and textures ending up on other places.

This can work based on OH. Not a perfect solution but it's better to start with what we have.
So we could upload a "Orbiter Licence" to OH (a text document really) and add-ons that use it only need to link it as "required"

For multiple similar releases, we can always check by date to see what came first.

Last edited by 4throck; 05-07-2019 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 05-07-2019, 01:25 PM   #103
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 I too support the notion of open source but limited for usage on Orbiter, no use elsewhere. I don't want my meshes and textures ending up on other places.
You could also use a different license for artworks (the branding of a program, after all).

Just remember though, that this makes it harder to continue development, which runs contrary to the open source idea. Not impossible, but essentially you can in the worst case force people to reverse engineering despite having your source code.

One well working solution there is having an organisation behind official main line development, that has the copyright for the artwork and ensures the official development continues, even after the EOL of the artist.

Another option could be having base line graphics, that are open source and available to all, and use specially branded artworks for the releases.


(Having an open-source framework in Orbiter to allow swapping a set of artworks without needing to change the add-on module would be a great tool there - maybe I can take a look there.)
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Old 05-08-2019, 04:41 PM   #104
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Yes, something like that would be great.
Could be as simple as loading assets from an alternate folder...

This would be better than just releasing a repaint that overwrites the original work...

That's one of the things we should solve: file overwrite and folder clutter.
We should have a rule for development that stating that all assets must be loaded from addon specific folders. Never from "textures" or "meshes" directly...
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Old 05-08-2019, 04:45 PM   #105
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 That's one of the things we should solve: file overwrite and folder clutter.
We should have a rule for development that stating that all assets must be loaded from addon specific folders. Never from "textures" or "meshes" directly...

I agree - actually I do this in most of my projects because of that. We had something like a "add-on etiquette" once in the past, with lots of those simple rules.

https://www.orbiterwiki.org/wiki/Add-on_etiquette
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