Orbiter-Forum  

Go Back   Orbiter-Forum > Orbiter Addons > Addon Development
Register Blogs Orbinauts List Social Groups FAQ Projects Mark Forums Read

Addon Development Developers post news, updates, & discussions here about your projects in development.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-03-2008, 01:43 PM   #31
Whatu
Interplanetary Stowaway
 
Whatu's Avatar
Default Little Observation

I see that the default crew names are the same of XR5...
If, when its released, I want to use a scenario with both ships, thats gonna be a minor issue...
I would have to change the names.. and thinking about names its not something I like to do.

But thats just because the crew are supposed to be the same.. Arent there anymore pilots available in Altea Aerospace?

BTW, this is just looking absolutely wonderful !
Whatu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2008, 02:31 PM   #32
yagni01
Addon Developer

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by silent_protagonist View Post
 I just had a thought: Does the XR2 still implement engine gimballing? If it does, how much would setting the engines for max pitch up before takeoff help get the nose in the air (assuming your not doing this already)?
I've experimented with that possibility, and anything but a bare touch of gimbal will create an entertaining backflip onto the runway. Plus creates the need of large forward stick pressure to halt that until you can center the CG again.


-----Double Post Auto-Merged 3/8/2008 at 09 : 06 : 16-----


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas View Post
 Can any other testers confirm the following 2 possible problems I may have discovered?

1) On a clean installation, if "Particle streams" are turned off (unticked) in the Orbiter Launchpad "Visual effects" section, then a CTD results when loading any of the included XR2 scenarios (I tried "Ready for takeoff to ISS" and "Landed at Brighton Beach").
When particle streams are turned back on, the scenario will load and run OK.

2) On a clean install,
Load the "Ready for take off to ISS".
Hit Ctrl F1 to call up the "Orbiter Camera" page.
Select the "Spaceports" option.
Try and swith view to Habana, Brighton or Olympus. You may have to switch views between them 2 or 3 times.
I get a CTD. This happens with every XR2 scenario I tested, but does NOT when I load and run the stock Deltaglider scenario "Dg-S ready for takeoff", or any other of the stock scenarios supplied with Orbiter.
I can confirm both.


-----Double Post Auto-Merged 3/8/2008 at 09 : 31 : 04-----


I've been experimenting with takeoff techniques, and found one that doesn't require the high pitch force - a rolling hover takeoff, like a Harrier.

Doug, There may be some tweaks, but I would hate to see all the XR vessels fly the same - they each have their own personality. I don't think we have a controversy, just normal test pilot/engineer debriefing sessions. What doesn't kill us. . .
yagni01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2008, 04:06 PM   #33
C3PO
Donator
 
C3PO's Avatar

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yagni01 View Post
 I've been experimenting with takeoff techniques, and found one that doesn't require the high pitch force - a rolling hover takeoff, like a Harrier.
Heh I tried that too, but all that smoke would have Greenpeace on your back in 10 sec. flat.

Why can't we just use the RCS to help out at low speeds? I've been nailing deadstick landings all afternoon. Just keep the speed above 280 m/s untill you can dive at 20 for the PAPI lights. When you're aligned, extend brakes and turn RCS on. Preflare at 600 m and drop gear at 200 m.

You should be able to kiss the RWY at around 120 m/s.

Would it be possible to disable the fuel- and LOX hatch anims, while the XR2 is docked?
C3PO is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2008, 08:04 PM   #34
yagni01
Addon Developer

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by C3PO View Post
 Heh I tried that too, but all that smoke would have Greenpeace on your back in 10 sec. flat.
That's not smoke. Its vaporized runway. Besides, since we're flying nuclear spacecraft, a little smoke is the least of their worries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C3PO View Post
 I've been nailing deadstick landings all afternoon.
She do land real nice. We just have to come up with a takeoff technique suitable for rookies.

Here's another option. Accelerate as you like to V1 - reduce power to 75% (if not already there). After liftoff and gear is up, resume full thrust (if desired). This gives the pilot plenty of time to raise the gear. I've tried it from 75-90% throttle, and it seems to work great (a slightly longer takeoff roll, of course). At the higher throttle settings, you just need to continue the pitch up to keep the airspeed below 210 until the gear is up.

Last edited by yagni01; 08-03-2008 at 08:41 PM.
yagni01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2008, 08:24 PM   #35
dbeachy1
O-F Administrator
 
dbeachy1's Avatar


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by C3PO View Post
 Is it possible to make max elevator deflection depend on dynamic pressure? Or will that screw up the AP?
That probably wouldn't affect the autopilot, but it wouldn't work because the ship needs more elevator force both at high dynamic pressure (e.g., rotation time) and at low dynamic pressure (e.g., keeping the nose up without using RCS fuel very high in the atmosphere).

In any case, I see two major issues with any kind of "automatic switching" of elevator performance: the first is the "jump" or "lurch" in performance the pilot would suddenly experience when the ship suddenly decreased elevator performance by X percent right after takeoff. The second issue is that there are times when you really want more elevator performance. Speaking personally, I like lots of elevator performance when I'm carrying a heavy payload and want to pull the nose up to vertical or when I'm very high in the atmosphere and want to pull the nose up using just elevators so I don't use any RCS fuel until I absolutely have to.

Therefore, since we can't have automatic settings that make every pilot happy, we either have to have "one size fits all" like pretty much all other Orbiter craft currently do, or we have to have a control the pilot can set to affect elevator performance. Given that the main panels are already full, I want to just re-purpose the seldom-used "Pitch" AF Ctrl setting: the pilot can set "AF Ctrl=Pitch" for takeoff and get all the elevator downforce he wants (the amount of which is set via a setting in the config file), and after takeoff he can set "AF Ctrl=On" to reduce elevator performance (the amount of which is also set in the config file). Then if and when the pilot wants more elevator performance (e.g., to pull the nose up at very high altitude), he can just set "AF Ctrl=Pitch" again to get lots of elevator performance: that setting will now affect the effective "elevator deflection amount" in addition to enabling/disabling roll control. The reason that cannot easily be reflected in the animation as well is because it is because the Obiter core drives the animation automatically; this is set by the CreateControlSurface API call. That is just a minor cosmetic issue, however -- what matters is that the pilot can tweak his elevator performance in flight if he wants to.

Thinking about this some more, I think just leaving "AF Ctrl=Pitch" only control the pitch makes sense. I will change the ModifiedAFControlPitchOption options from being in the cheatcodes section to being "real" config items that are fully supported. How about this:

Quote:
# If 1 (enabled), 'AFCtrlPerformanceModifier' settings will be used. The default is 0 (disabled) so that novice pilots who don't know to set 'AF Ctrl=Pitch' for takeoff will still be able to rotate with full payload.
EnableAFCtrlPerformanceModifiers = 1

# The first number is 'AFCtrl=Pitch' mode (increase elevator performance by 20% in "Pitch" mode)
# The second number is 'AFCtrl=On' mode (decrease elevator performance by 40% in "On" mode)
AFCtrlPerformanceModifier = 1.20 0.60
Then we can as a group decide on what the best default AFCtrlPerformanceModifier settings should be. If EnableAFCtrlPerformanceModifiers=0 (the default), the ship will simply use the current elevator performance values. That will let novice pilots still "jump in the cockpit and go" without reading the manual, but advanced pilots will just set EnableAFCtrlPerformanceModifiers=1 in the config file and be able to have the best of both worlds -- high elevator performance when they want it and less elevator performance for smooth flight control when they want that, too. If we do this, it will also let me keep the current default elevator performance as-is so that novice pilots can fly without ever using "AFCtrl=Pitch."

What do you guys think? I think it's a win-win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C3PO View Post
 Anyway, the tertiary HUD lists the door actions twice every time.
Argh! I know what that is -- I must be calling the XR2's superclass, and so that also displays a door message. I'll fix that for Beta-2. Good catch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas View Post
 Can any other testers confirm the following 2 possible problems I may have discovered?

1) On a clean installation, if "Particle streams" are turned off (unticked) in the Orbiter Launchpad "Visual effects" section, then a CTD results when loading any of the included XR2 scenarios (I tried "Ready for takeoff to ISS" and "Landed at Brighton Beach").
When particle streams are turned back on, the scenario will load and run OK.
That's a good catch; I'll fix that for Beta-2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas View Post
 2) On a clean install,
Load the "Ready for take off to ISS".
Hit Ctrl F1 to call up the "Orbiter Camera" page.
Select the "Spaceports" option.
Try and swith view to Habana, Brighton or Olympus. You may have to switch views between them 2 or 3 times.
I get a CTD. This happens with every XR2 scenario I tested, but does NOT when I load and run the stock Deltaglider scenario "Dg-S ready for takeoff", or any other of the stock scenarios supplied with Orbiter.
I just tested that here, and it happens in external view when I switch. I'll investigate it here. This is the same CTD that other members have reported as well. Good catch, all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas View Post
 In Rotation mode I found myself using the Ctrl key (fine thrust control option) because the full thrusters induce an uncomfortably fast rate of change of Pitch/Roll/Yaw.
This is in an unladen ship. I see from the cfg file that the payload capacity is 10795kg so I should test with a full payload simulated before I can accurately assess the RCS systems.
I had tuned the RCS jets to work with full payload, but they still may be too high for a typical payload. I'm OK with the ship feeling "sluggish" with heavy payload, so I'll look into tweaking that for Beta-2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C3PO View Post
 I've done the same thing, and I've moved ISS so you will not have to chase it for a long time. You can actually dock before you're over KSC again.
Thanks for the updated scenario! I will test this and bundle it with Beta-2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolhand View Post
 Doug, can you actually tell where the COG is in the ship, is it about where i suggested it should be?
As computed by Orbiter's Shipedit utility after 83,000 samples, the Center of Mass is as follows:

Code:
X=0.01
Y=0.41
Z=-1.96
These numbers are distance in meters from the center of the ship's mesh, so after checking in 3dsmax, the COG is just aft of the payload bay between the back of the bay and the LOX and Fuel hatches. XR ships do not alter the center-of-gravity based on payload mass, so these numbers assume a full payload bay. Note that the reason XR vessels do not alter the center-of-mass based on payload is because the autopilots are calibrated to work with a "balanced" ship, and so they work on an "idealized" model in order to keep the ship as stable as possible under time acceleration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatu View Post
 I see that the default crew names are the same of XR5...
If, when its released, I want to use a scenario with both ships, thats gonna be a minor issue...
I would have to change the names.. and thinking about names its not something I like to do.

But thats just because the crew are supposed to be the same.. Arent there anymore pilots available in Altea Aerospace?
Well, I am open to suggestions. The current crew names are a homage to Stargate and BSG, two of my favorite TV shows. You can just alter them to your liking by editing the scenario files right after you install the ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yagni01 View Post
 Doug, There may be some tweaks, but I would hate to see all the XR vessels fly the same - they each have their own personality. I don't think we have a controversy, just normal test pilot/engineer debriefing sessions. What doesn't kill us. . .
I agree with you there. I think the custom "AF Ctrl" settings will work well for this, and the ship certainly flies differently from the XR1 and XR5, even in Beta-1. I'll get the new AF Ctrl config settings into Beta-1a so the team can try them out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C3PO View Post
 Heh I tried that too, but all that smoke would have Greenpeace on your back in 10 sec. flat.

Why can't we just use the RCS to help out at low speeds? I've been nailing deadstick landings all afternoon. Just keep the speed above 280 m/s untill you can dive at 20 for the PAPI lights. When you're aligned, extend brakes and turn RCS on. Preflare at 600 m and drop gear at 200 m.

You should be able to kiss the RWY at around 120 m/s.
Well, that certainly works, too. However, after the new 'AFCtrlPerformanceModifier ' is in place for Beta-1a we won't have to use RCS anymore.

[EDIT: although, I do like to use "killrot" to hold the nose steady right before touchdown. I was thinking more about not having to use RCS at takeoff.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by C3PO View Post
 Would it be possible to disable the fuel- and LOX hatch anims, while the XR2 is docked?
Yes, that's easy enough. I'll add a config option for that. By default, however, animations will remain enabled so that I don't get "bug reports" from users complaining that the fuel hatches don't work when docked.
dbeachy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2008, 08:35 PM   #36
markl316
XR2 Ravenstar Commander

Default

Great work so far!!!
On the XR1 and XR5, when you deploy the airbrake, it makes the nose want to go down a LOT. Do you plan on making it more centered on the XR2?
markl316 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2008, 08:49 PM   #37
dbeachy1
O-F Administrator
 
dbeachy1's Avatar


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by markl316 View Post
 Great work so far!!!
On the XR1 and XR5, when you deploy the airbrake, it makes the nose want to go down a LOT. Do you plan on making it more centered on the XR2?
Actually the airbrake is already centered on all XR vessels. Here is the actual code for the XR1:

Code:
CreateVariableDragElement (&brake_proc, 4, _V(0,0,-8)); // airbrake
The three numbers in the "_V" vector are X,Y,Z offsets from the ship's center-of-mass, with Z being forward-aft. So the drag occurs exactly centered for left-right (X) and up-down (Y), and 8 meters aft of the center of mass.

So if the nose drops it's because the ship is slowing down.
dbeachy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2008, 08:59 PM   #38
orwellkid
Addon Developer
 
orwellkid's Avatar
Default

Wow.

Despite having a (very) angry girlfriend, I have completed about 30 KSC->ISS->KSC or KSC->MIR->KSC missions over the past couple of days.

First and foremost; premature atmospheric heating aside, this ship handles the most realistic of all Orbiter ships (including stock) in the atmosphere. When you're bringing it in for a deadstick landing (and I've done many more outside of the Roundtrip missions aforementioned), it stays where you put. Just like you would expect it to.

I've had problems with the stock DG losing far too much energy, and having a sketchy kind of pitch control < 10km of altitude, but the Ravenstar performs magnificantly. It took me a couple landing to figure out the speeds so I don't collapse the gear; but now I've got it down to a science hehehe.

The model is fantastic. I'm thoroughly pleased that the radiator/cargo bay deploy sequences are much faster, and the interal bay looks hot hot hot.

In-orbit performance is great too. I use small amounts of thrust for plane changes and it's smooth as butter. The re-entry effects are fantastic too (love the "glow").

Special kudos to Doug on the atmospheric model, again. I'm sick of approaching KSC at -20 degrees and LOSING airspeed; which is NOT realistic. This beautiful baby does NOT have this problem.

Word.

I have verified the above bugs in my clean install.

Now, it appears that the callouts occur at the same speeds as the XR1; so rather than getting all crazy with AF cheat codes, why not set the threshold for the callout forward by about 20m/s? I wait ~4 seconds after "Rotate" to pull back and it performs as it should, IMHO anyway.

Couple of Questions:

1. In the final build, will the airlock between the cabin and the Crew (or Slave ) Habitation Module be animated?

2. Will it use the same 2D panel, or are there works on a new one? (sorry if this has been covered; I'm just waking up from a full day of flight tests )

3. Would it be possible to "dull" the glow of the re-entry heating a little bit? It could very well just be me, but it seems when it gets really hot (like a direct reentry from IIS orbit hahahaha) it glows REAL bright-pinkish. Maybe a duller orangey... this is not really important, rather me being a fickle

4. Can you numb out the Rudder sensitivity just a little bit? It's not HUGE deal, but full rudder deflection makes it yaw a little more than I think it should.

To re-iterate, none of these things are heart-stopping, and I would be happy to take home the XR2 today, as is. It is a fantastic ship to fly.

Cheers boys on a job well done

_O.K._
orwellkid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2008, 09:53 PM   #39
SlyCoopersButt
Orbinaut
Default

The brightness of re-entry I think is not to be under-estimated. I always thought the DGIV's was a bit dim.
SlyCoopersButt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2008, 11:12 PM   #40
dbeachy1
O-F Administrator
 
dbeachy1's Avatar


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by orwellkid View Post
 Now, it appears that the callouts occur at the same speeds as the XR1; so rather than getting all crazy with AF cheat codes, why not set the threshold for the callout forward by about 20m/s? I wait ~4 seconds after "Rotate" to pull back and it performs as it should, IMHO anyway.
I will tweak that for the upcoming Beta-1a.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orwellkid View Post
 Couple of Questions:

1. In the final build, will the airlock between the cabin and the Crew (or Slave ) Habitation Module be animated?
There are currently no plans for that, although that is a possiblity for a late Beta depending on what is visible inside the CHM. We'll have to see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by orwellkid View Post
 2. Will it use the same 2D panel, or are there works on a new one? (sorry if this has been covered; I'm just waking up from a full day of flight tests )
The Mk I (the 1.0 release) will use the same panels you see now. The Mk II will have a fully functional VC and probably, at the very least, some new control graphics on the 2D panels as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orwellkid View Post
 3. Would it be possible to "dull" the glow of the re-entry heating a little bit? It could very well just be me, but it seems when it gets really hot (like a direct reentry from IIS orbit hahahaha) it glows REAL bright-pinkish. Maybe a duller orangey... this is not really important, rather me being a fickle
The color of the mesh is "baked into the mesh", but I could make the heating mesh a little less opaque at its peak: currently the mesh reaches 50% opacity at peak heating. I'd like to hear some feedback from the other testers on this, too -- should I reduce the opacity of the hull heating mesh at peak heating?

Quote:
Originally Posted by orwellkid View Post
 4. Can you numb out the Rudder sensitivity just a little bit? It's not HUGE deal, but full rudder deflection makes it yaw a little more than I think it should.
I will test that out here and see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orwellkid View Post
 To re-iterate, none of these things are heart-stopping, and I would be happy to take home the XR2 today, as is. It is a fantastic ship to fly.

Cheers boys on a job well done

_O.K._
Thanks. Steve and I have a lot of work in the ship, and positive feedback is always appreciated.

Steve and I are also fortunate to have such a top-notch Beta Testing Team.

====

P.S. Sorry about the angry g/f. I'll have to add a line to the credits like this:

"Number of very angry girlfriends caused by excessive Beta Testing: 1"
dbeachy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2008, 11:28 PM   #41
Coolhand
Addon Developer
 
Coolhand's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbeachy1 View Post
 "Number of very angry girlfriends caused by excessive Beta Testing: 1"
LOL. make that two

regarding the heating effects, it's pretty experimental for me and doug, i just painted it as best as i could... I haven't yet tweaked the material settings in the .msh - i've hand tweaked the relevant values for all the rest of them to make them look just right in orbiter, maybe doug has already had a go at that, i thought it looked pretty good for my first try. I think dougs on the right track by not making it totally opaque, its good to see some of the ship through it... maybe 50% at its peak is actually a little too low though? Hard to say though since actual reference material of a real shuttle re-entering is somewhat difficult to come by for some reason. Of course it might look different under different lighting, so it might look a bit different at night to what it might look like in the day. If the colours off consistently, then i can always adjust the texture to compensate... post screenies of how it looks in different situations if you don't think it looks right.
Coolhand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2008, 12:29 AM   #42
C3PO
Donator
 
C3PO's Avatar

Default

I've tried editing the UMMu crew, but it doesn't have any effect on the number of crew. Isn't the UMMu implemented yet?

BTW bailing out is quite fun, and it's not as simple as pulling an eject handle.
C3PO is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2008, 12:57 AM   #43
eveningsky339
Resident Orbiter Slave
 
eveningsky339's Avatar

Default

Would it be unethical to kidnap a Beta-tester and hijack their clean XR2 installation??
eveningsky339 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2008, 01:03 AM   #44
dbeachy1
O-F Administrator
 
dbeachy1's Avatar


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by C3PO View Post
 I've tried editing the UMMu crew, but it doesn't have any effect on the number of crew. Isn't the UMMu implemented yet?
Can please post a scenario that demonstrates the problem? I just re-tested that here and it works as expected.
dbeachy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2008, 01:09 AM   #45
C3PO
Donator
 
C3PO's Avatar

Default

Sorry. I can change the number of crew in the scenario. I'm not sure how to use this scenario line: XRUMMU_CREW_DATA_VALID 1
[edit] I think I've figured it out [/edit]

And is there any way to specify the EMU mesh in the scenario file?
C3PO is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

  Orbiter-Forum > Orbiter Addons > Addon Development


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:02 AM.

Quick Links Need Help?


About Us | Rules & Guidelines | TOS Policy | Privacy Policy

Orbiter-Forum is hosted at Orbithangar.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2007 - 2017, Orbiter-Forum.com. All rights reserved.