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Old 08-31-2012, 05:21 AM   #16
jedidia
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I'm not quite sure I follow. Define "wiped", and define whether it happens after saving or after reloading.

In your second paragraph, you seem to talk about finalisation, which would be a different animal entirely to simple saving and loading of a scenario. It is possible that finalisation does not retain radiator configurations, although it should. If that is the only problem, there is indeed something wrong in the parser.

Note however that fialisation is not intended to save the vessel state, but rather to provide a file from where vessels of this type can be spawned without much hassle. I.E. they spawn completely powered down, with full tanks and stores, but theyshould retain the crew and the radiator configuration, as these things are usually pretty tedious to do for larger vessels. So again, if by "wiped" you mean that no modules are connected to the radiators, and if this happens on finalisation, it's a bug, but a pretty simple one.

If it happens on simple sql, or even on saving alone, then that would be a pretty darn serious bug that noone has noticed yet (probably undefined behavior). The same applies if by wiped you mean that the radiators don't show up on the engineering panel at all anymore.
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:38 AM   #17
Tacolev
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By "wiped" I mean they don't show up in the engineering panel.
Vessel:

Panel:

Last edited by Tacolev; 08-31-2012 at 05:40 AM. Reason: wrong link
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:42 AM   #18
PeterRoss
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Try unzoom the panel.

EDIT. Oh. The last image is an interesting one indeed.
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:45 AM   #19
Tacolev
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Certainly:
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:48 AM   #20
PeterRoss
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I see the problem. Unzooming was about the picture you posted wrongly before you edited your post.
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:52 AM   #21
Tacolev
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Yes sorry. Here's a before and after with a different vessel. The example I used was present-to-hand but I didn't have any scenarios with it where it still had its radiators:


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Old 08-31-2012, 05:57 AM   #22
PeterRoss
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Could you post a scenario with rads wiped out and the one before it (autosave?)?
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Old 08-31-2012, 06:00 AM   #23
jedidia
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ok, major wtf. Never seen anything like it. Could you try to describe exactly when it happens? That is, the actions you do that lead to it happening, every mouseclick, keyboard entry, whatever. And I'll need the exact scenario you do the tests with.
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Old 08-31-2012, 06:43 AM   #24
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Ok I will honor Peter's request for the before and after .scn because in doing so I discovered something I wasn't by just looking at the autosaves that might have localized how the issue came about:

Before, autosave:
Code:
BEGIN_DESC
Contains the latest simulation state.
END_DESC

BEGIN_ENVIRONMENT
  System Sol
  Date MJD 54147.0281861477
END_ENVIRONMENT

BEGIN_FOCUS
  Ship HDPE
END_FOCUS

BEGIN_CAMERA
  TARGET HDPE
  MODE Extern
  POS 1.83 33.95 -24.53
  TRACKMODE TargetRelative
  FOV 60.00
END_CAMERA

BEGIN_PANEL
END_PANEL

BEGIN_SHIPS
HDPE:IMS\finished vessels\HDPE-01C
  STATUS Orbiting Earth
  RPOS 6902314.24 0.00 1213126.78
  RVEL -1305.488 -0.000 7427.819
  AROT 0.00 -0.00 0.00
  AFCMODE 7
  PRPLEVEL 0:1.000000 1:1.000000 2:1.000000 3:1.000000 4:1.000000
  NAVFREQ 0 0
  COMMAND 0 0
  MODULES 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 
  PROP LOX_LH2 11360
  PROP LH2 312156
  ENGINE 0 -1
  ENGINE 0 -1
  ENGINE 0 -1
  ENGINE 0 -1
  ENGINE 0 -1
  ENGINE 0 -1
  ANIM 18 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 19 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 20 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 21 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 22 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 23 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 24 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 25 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 26 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 27 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 37 SBB41B\BR010_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 38 SBB41B\BR010_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 39 SBB41B\BR010_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 40 SBB41B\BR010_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 56 SBB41B\BCCH_Container_Holder 0 0
  CONSUMABLES 0.00010.00010.0001
  TEMPERATURES -1:298.00:297.35 1:298.00:297.35 14:999.91:301.04 15:999.91:301.04 16:999.91:288.23 17:999.91:288.23 30:1300.46:297.35 31:1300.46:286.21 34:1300.47:297.35 35:1300.47:264.42 43:999.91:301.04 44:999.91:288.23 45:1300.46:297.35 46:1300.46:264.42
  RADIATOR 18 287.101 0 1 0 30 31 34 35 14 15 16 17 43 44 45 46
  RADIATOR 19 243.829 0 1 0 30 31 34 35 14 15 16 17 43 44 45 46
  RADIATOR 20 241.456 0 1 0 14 15 17 16 30 31 34 35
  RADIATOR 21 242.928 0 1 0 14 15 16 17 30 31 34 35 43 44 45 46
  RADIATOR 22 242.703 0 1 0 30 31 34 35 14 15 16 17 43 44 45 46
  RADIATOR 23 244.2 0 1 0 30 31 34 35 14 15 16 17 43 44 45 46
  RADIATOR 24 242.625 0 1 0 14 15 16 17 30 31 34 35 43 44 45 46
  RADIATOR 25 242.724 0 1 0 30 31 34 35 15 16 17 43 44 45 46
  RADIATOR 26 242.724 0 1 0 30 31 34 35 14 15 16 17 43 44 45 46
  RADIATOR 27 242.724 0 1 0 30 31 34 35 14 15 16 17 45 46 43 44
  RADIATOR 37 288.976 0 1 0 -1
  RADIATOR 38 288.558 0 -1 0 1
  RADIATOR 39 284.93 -1 0 0 -1 1
  RADIATOR 40 284.929 1 0 0 -1 1
  HEATING -1
  THGROUPLEVELS 0 0 0 0 
  CREW 0 0
  ENERGY 0.000000
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
END
END_SHIPS
And... here check this out. After clicking "save current" this is what is produced:
Code:
BEGIN_DESC

END_DESC

BEGIN_ENVIRONMENT
  System Sol
  Date MJD 54147.0281861477
END_ENVIRONMENT

BEGIN_FOCUS
  Ship HDPE
END_FOCUS

BEGIN_CAMERA
  TARGET HDPE
  MODE Extern
  POS 1.83 33.95 -24.53
  TRACKMODE TargetRelative
  FOV 60.00
END_CAMERA

BEGIN_PANEL
END_PANEL

BEGIN_SHIPS
HDPE:IMS\finished vessels\HDPE-01C
  STATUS Orbiting Earth
  RPOS 6902314.24 0.00 1213126.78
  RVEL -1305.488 -0.000 7427.819
  AROT 0.00 -0.00 0.00
  AFCMODE 7
  PRPLEVEL 0:1.000000 1:1.000000 2:1.000000 3:1.000000 4:1.000000
  NAVFREQ 0 0
  COMMAND 0 0
  MODULES 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 
  PROP LOX_LH2 11360
  PROP LH2 312156
  ENGINE 0 -1
  ENGINE 0 -1
  ENGINE 0 -1
  ENGINE 0 -1
  ENGINE 0 -1
  ENGINE 0 -1
  ANIM 18 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 19 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 20 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 21 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 22 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 23 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 24 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 25 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 26 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 27 SBB41B\BR200_Hi_Temp_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 37 SBB41B\BR010_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 38 SBB41B\BR010_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 39 SBB41B\BR010_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 40 SBB41B\BR010_Radiator 1 1
  ANIM 56 SBB41B\BCCH_Container_Holder 0 0
  CONSUMABLES 0.00010.00010.0001
Neatly truncating right before the radiators.

Of note is that this vessel is loading from a "finalized" configuration. Since I had been re-using so many of the same names I didn't realize that this only occurs when a vessel loads from a "finalized" config:

So to get this error:
1. Instantiate vehicle from finalized config.
2. Autosave
3. "Save current..." autosave.
4. Load saved file.

Give me a moment and I will add some stereotyped examples using a radiator taped to a control unit.

---------- Post added at 06:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:25 AM ----------

Hrmm... Okay I officially have no idea what's going on here anymore. I wiped all the previously-generated config files and scenarios and went to document my constructed test case and now it seems that instantiating ANY vessel from a finalized config file does this even without the save thing. It is nearly 3AM where I am at so I will save any more rigorous debugging and documentation stuff til tomorrow.
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Old 08-31-2012, 06:50 AM   #25
jedidia
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Should be enough information to figure it out, I'm on it. Thanks!

EDIT: Reproduced and nailed. The problem is glaringly obvious, the radiators simply aren't written to the config file. Looks like this has never been really tested beyond just loading a finalised vessel, looking at it from outside and thinking "yap, works". I know I never tested this feature beyond that...

On another funny note, I tried something out before releasing RC1 to see if it might reduce the ctd-probability. I was pretty astonished to see that it did, only to find out now that the reason it did was because it didn't work, and didn't delete all the docking ports it should. Now that it actually does what I wanted it to do, ctds are more frequent again. Oh well...

Last edited by jedidia; 08-31-2012 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 08-31-2012, 04:30 PM   #26
Tacolev
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Aha. Well it works pretty drat well otherwise, all things considered, if that's all the checking you did on it.

---------- Post added at 04:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 PM ----------

OK, I'll prod you one more time on something else. Probably in a manner that doesn't have the potential to cause existential terror:

Is there a clean way, either within a module config file or in the scenario file, to offset the z axis of a control module/ims vessel besides screwing with its size parameters in the config file? Specifically I'm thinking of the "Control AI" cargo box which has a tendency to make things tumble under thrust for this reason.

A flat out "no" is a perfectly acceptable answer if it would throw priorities off.
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:11 PM   #27
jedidia
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Quote:
Is there a clean way, either within a module config file or in the scenario file, to offset the z axis of a control module/ims vessel besides screwing with its size parameters in the config file?
Not sure what you mean by "offset the Z axis". I assume you talk about center of gravity. You have to pay attention to build symmetricaly, that's the easiest way to avoid the problem. I once had a CoG-shift MFC in the plan, but after reworking the whole CoG calculation it became so stable that there are no issues as long as you watch what you're building. I might still pick up the idea again if it's called for, but it won't be too soon.

Currently, the CoG is calculated from scratch depending on the modules, module positions and modules load (propellant and consumables), so there is no way to alter the CoG without editing the mass of the modules in their configs.

Last edited by jedidia; 08-31-2012 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:25 PM   #28
Tacolev
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Maybe I'm misinterpreting what's happening here but it seemed to me like control module's z-axis is taking precedence with the COG calculations.

Consider this vessel, perfectly balanced about the Z axis, with the control module attached to the nadir construction port and an equivalent mass battery on top:


When I fire both engines it "tumbles" as though the COG were through the control module, even though the mass on the whole is balanced.

Last edited by Tacolev; 08-31-2012 at 05:28 PM. Reason: unclear wording.
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:37 PM   #29
jedidia
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Quote:
When I fire both engines it "tumbles" as though the COG were through the control module, even though the mass on the whole is balanced.
Should not happen! please post the scenario.
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:45 PM   #30
Tacolev
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Here we are:

Code:
BEGIN_DESC
Contains the latest simulation state.
END_DESC

BEGIN_ENVIRONMENT
  System Sol
  Date MJD 54147.0298814113
END_ENVIRONMENT

BEGIN_FOCUS
  Ship HDPE-00C
END_FOCUS

BEGIN_CAMERA
  TARGET HDPE-00C
  MODE Extern
  POS 548373.57 55.61 -26.57
  TRACKMODE TargetRelative
  FOV 60.00
END_CAMERA

BEGIN_PANEL
END_PANEL

BEGIN_SHIPS
HDPE-00C:IMS\SBB41B\BG203_CONTROL_AI_SContainer
  STATUS Orbiting Earth
  RPOS 7007559.16 0.03 87382.36
  RVEL -94.035 0.002 7541.104
  AROT 0.00 -0.00 90.00
  AFCMODE 7
  PRPLEVEL 0:1.000000 1:1.000000 2:1.000000 3:1.000000
  NAVFREQ 0 0
  COMMAND 0 1
  MODULE SBB41B\BT101_Truss 0,2.3571,0 0,0,1 -1,0,0 0
  MODULE SBB41B\BG201_Battery_SContainer 0,4.7143,0 0,0,1 0,-1,0 0
  MODULE SBB41B\BRCS2_ReactionControlSystem_Engine 0,2.3571,-5.623 0,0,-1 0,1,0 0
  MODULE SBB41B\BTank202_LOX_LH2_SFuelTank 0,2.3571,6.1839 0,0,-1 1,0,0 0
  MODULE SBB41B\BR010_Radiator 0,2.3571,7.2917 0,0,1 -1,0,0 0
  MODULE SBB41B\BHVE_Sidemount_Rocket_Engine -2.0767,2.3571,-0.788 0,0,1 1,0,0 0
  MODULE SBB41B\BHVE_Sidemount_Rocket_Engine 2.0767,2.3571,-0.788 0,0,1 -1,0,0 0
  DELETEPOINT 1
  ATTPOINT IM 0,5.9827,0 0,1,0 0,0,1
  DELETEPORT 0
  CONSTRUCTIONPORT 0,1.2684,0 0,-1,0 0,0,1
  CONSTRUCTIONPORT 0,3.4459,0 0,-1,0 0,0,1
  CONSTRUCTIONPORT 0,5.9827,0 0,1,0 0,0,1
  CONSTRUCTIONPORT 0,2.3571,-5.076 0,0,1 0,1,0
  CONSTRUCTIONPORT 0,2.3571,5.076 0,0,-1 0,1,0
  CONSTRUCTIONPORT 0,2.3571,7.2917 0,0,-1 0,1,0
  CONSTRUCTIONPORT -1.0887,2.3571,0 1,0,0 0,0,1
  CONSTRUCTIONPORT 1.0887,2.3571,0 -1,0,0 0,0,1
  EMPTYMASS 7500.000000
  MASSCENTER 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000
  PMI 17.060000 17.410000 6.860000
  PROP LOX_LH2 5680 5680
  ENGINE 5 0 -1
  ENGINE 6 0 -1
  RCSBLOCK 4 4000 4099 0,2.3571,-5.623 5 0,1,0 -1,0,0 0,-1,0 1,0,0 0,0,1 0
  ANIM 4 SBB41B\BR010_Radiator 0 0
  CONSUMABLES 0.0001 0.0001 0 0.0001 0.0001 0 0.0001 0.0001 0
  TEMPERATURES -1:298.00:273.04 1:298.00:298.01 5:700.00:699.72 6:700.00:699.72
  RADIATOR 4 200 0 0 1
  HEATING -1
  THGROUPLEVELS 0 0 0 0 
  CREW 0 0
  ENERGY 396000000.000000
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
  MFC 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1
END
END_SHIPS
Not enough fuel for the problem to really show with the main engines but try the linear RCS forward.
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