Orbiter-Forum  

Go Back   Orbiter-Forum > Far Side of the Moon > Brighton Lounge
Register Blogs Orbinauts List Social Groups FAQ Projects Mark Forums Read

Brighton Lounge General off-topic discussions. Political or religious topics may only be posted in The Basement forum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-19-2019, 09:53 PM   #1
Notebook
Donator
 
Notebook's Avatar


Default Scapa Flow: Sunken WW1 battleships up for sale on eBay

I was going to get all self indignant about this. The ships aren't war graves, though German sailors were killed during the scuttling, so that's debateable.

Its just the loss of unique history to what I thought was the scrap-man.
Its not, and I've calmed down now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...tland-48684400

Had a look at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission site at Orkney.
They list the German sailors for June 21st 1919 and after, the date of the scuttling.

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-d...literal=German

Question, what is "Heizer"?

Last edited by Notebook; 06-19-2019 at 10:01 PM.
Notebook is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2019, 10:20 PM   #2
Urwumpe
Certain Super User
 
Urwumpe's Avatar

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notebook View Post
  Question, what is "Heizer"?


Stoker in Royal Navy parlance.
Urwumpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
Old 06-20-2019, 10:10 AM   #3
Linguofreak
Orbinaut
Default

The really heavy salvage work on the fleet had been done before WWII. Since the war, until they came under legal protection, the ships were used as a source of pre-nuclear-testing steel (because, e.g, a Geiger counter built with late 20th century steel would have too many internal decays from radioisotopes absorbed from the air when it was smelted to be able to accurately measure low count rates).

It's less of a concern now that we're half a century down the road from nuclear test bans, but it was a significant problem in the 60s-ish.
Linguofreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
Old 06-20-2019, 10:41 AM   #4
Notebook
Donator
 
Notebook's Avatar


Default

Indeed, I've read about the inter-war years salvage at Scapa Flow. Quite a project.

Had heard about pre-nuclear steel. Fascinating how that first atomic test has set a marker in Earth's history.
Notebook is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2019, 12:52 PM   #5
jedidia
shoemaker without legs
 
jedidia's Avatar
Default

I love the "pre-owned" tag on the ebay tickets
jedidia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2019, 01:21 PM   #6
Urwumpe
Certain Super User
 
Urwumpe's Avatar

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedidia View Post
 I love the "pre-owned" tag on the ebay tickets
Yes, and they have surprisingly low mileage for a battlecruiser.
Urwumpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2019, 02:31 PM   #7
Notebook
Donator
 
Notebook's Avatar


Default

BBC got it wrong saying it was four Battleships. The SMS Karlsruhe is a cruiser.
Price should have been a clue, its only £60K.

They are Scheduled Monuments now, so have some protection.
Quote:
It is against the law to:
Disturb a scheduled monument by carrying out works (outside Class Consents) without SMC.
Cause reckless or deliberate damage to a monument.
Use a metal detector or remove an object found at a monument without a licence from Historic England.
Conviction for these offences can lead to fines.
https://historicengland.org.uk/advic.../consents/smc/
Notebook is online now   Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
Old 06-20-2019, 02:40 PM   #8
Urwumpe
Certain Super User
 
Urwumpe's Avatar

Default

To be more precise:

ShipClassClassification
SMS MarkgrafKönigBattleship
SMS KönigKönigBattleship
SMS KronprinzKönigBattleship
SMS KarlsruheKönigsbergLight Cruiser

And more so, the three battleships had originally been designed as "Großlinienschiff" which designate Dreadnought and Superdreadnought class ships before the end of WW1.

A battlecruiser would have been called a "Großer Kreuzer" (large cruiser, not heavy cruiser) at that time, for fiscal reasons: This way they had been funded by the cruiser budget not by the dreadnought budget. Otherwise, the parliament with the social-democratic party could have had a word there, they wanted to reduce the fleet size by building fewer "multi-role ships" (Einheitsschiffe) instead of a large number of cruisers and battleships.

Last edited by Urwumpe; 06-20-2019 at 02:52 PM.
Urwumpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
Old 06-20-2019, 07:20 PM   #9
Linguofreak
Orbinaut
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urwumpe View Post
 To be more precise:

ShipClassClassification
SMS MarkgrafKönigBattleship
SMS KönigKönigBattleship
SMS KronprinzKönigBattleship
SMS KarlsruheKönigsbergLight Cruiser

And more so, the three battleships had originally been designed as "Großlinienschiff" which designate Dreadnought and Superdreadnought class ships before the end of WW1.

A battlecruiser would have been called a "Großer Kreuzer" (large cruiser, not heavy cruiser) at that time, for fiscal reasons: This way they had been funded by the cruiser budget not by the dreadnought budget. Otherwise, the parliament with the social-democratic party could have had a word there, they wanted to reduce the fleet size by building fewer "multi-role ships" (Einheitsschiffe) instead of a large number of cruisers and battleships.
I'm not sure it actually was for fiscal reasons: The English-speaking navies came with new names for refinements of several existing concepts, whereas the German navy just adopted the refinements under the old names. In the English speaking world, destroyers were initially conceptualized as an anti-torpedo-boat vessel, and then turned out to be good torpedo delivery vessels themselves. Germany started building similar vessels, but kept calling them "Torpedoboote", to my understanding, as late as WWII. Similarly, BCs were a refinement of the armored cruiser concept to capital-caliber weapons and the "all big gun" dreadnought concept (and, indeed, the British BCs were not initially intended to stand in the line of battle, despite the name, nor did they prove capable of doing so in combat). The German Navy actually misunderstood the concept when they first received intel on the construction of Invincible, and built Blücher along more traditional armored cruiser lines in response. When they learned of the true nature of British BCs, they started building their own, but never stopped calling them armored/large cruisers (even though German BCs were heavily enough armored to stand in a battle line).

Of course, then the US Navy went and used the CA designation for armored cruisers for both their old armored cruisers and newer "heavy cruisers", which were just the heavy end of the light cruiser spectrum, making terms like "armored cruiser" and "large cruiser" all the more confusing.
Linguofreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2019, 09:29 PM   #10
Urwumpe
Certain Super User
 
Urwumpe's Avatar

Default

Well, the "Großer Kreuzer" was really used for this effect. See here about the story:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Naval_Laws


We actually still pay a tax created for building and maintaining the imperial high seas fleet. Maybe we should use this money for buying the wrecks.
Urwumpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
Old 06-20-2019, 10:12 PM   #11
Sunhillow
Donator
 
Sunhillow's Avatar
Default

Haha ... actually this tax has been raised on sparkling wine in Germany and Austria. But today this income is spent for other things than the Kaiser's Navy
Sunhillow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2019, 10:44 PM   #12
Urwumpe
Certain Super User
 
Urwumpe's Avatar

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunhillow View Post
 Haha ... actually this tax has been raised on sparkling wine in Germany and Austria. But today this income is spent for other things than the Kaiser's Navy

Was sure a smart idea to not write the purpose of the tax into the law for it.


But 800000€ would still be a bargain then....
Urwumpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 12:00 AM   #13
Linguofreak
Orbinaut
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urwumpe View Post
 Well, the "Großer Kreuzer" was really used for this effect. See here about the story:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Naval_Laws


We actually still pay a tax created for building and maintaining the imperial high seas fleet. Maybe we should use this money for buying the wrecks.
I just don't see that in the article: the German BCs were built to counter British BCs, which were built, despite the name, for a specifically large-cruiser role. If Germany was to maintain large-cruiser parity with Britain, it *had* to fill the large cruiser slots provided by the naval laws with BCs, because Britain was no longer building classical armored cruisers for the large cruiser role.

If anything, fiscal considerations would have dictated not the use of the large-cruiser slots to build BCs, but the fact that German BCS were actually built to stand in the line of battle: Unlike Britain, Germany couldn't afford to build ships with a capital ship price tag that couldn't stand in the line, so German BCs were armored at the expense of firepower.

Now, if I had written the 1908 amendment, I would have gone further and specified that both the battleship and large cruiser slots were to be filled with battlecruisers.
Linguofreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 06:29 AM   #14
Urwumpe
Certain Super User
 
Urwumpe's Avatar

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linguofreak View Post
  If anything, fiscal considerations would have dictated not the use of the large-cruiser slots to build BCs, but the fact that German BCS were actually built to stand in the line of battle: Unlike Britain, Germany couldn't afford to build ships with a capital ship price tag that couldn't stand in the line, so German BCs were armored at the expense of firepower.

Exactly that was the problem - if it was meant to fight in the line (like the Emperor wanted), it was a capital ship of the line (Großlinienschiff) and thus, had to be fitted into an already exploited budget that opponents in parliament rather wanted to reduce than to increase.
Urwumpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 06:53 AM   #15
Notebook
Donator
 
Notebook's Avatar


Default

It is 100 years ago today since this event. BBC article:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48599958

Quote:
"The ships were not actually surrendered and that's why there were no British troops on board them to prevent them being scuttled," Tom Muir from Orkney Museum told BBC Radio Scotland's When the Fleet Went Down. "They were German government property and remained that throughout their time here."
Didn't know that, probably a good thing there were no troops on the ships. Would have been many more deaths I think.
Notebook is online now   Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
Reply

  Orbiter-Forum > Far Side of the Moon > Brighton Lounge


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:00 PM.

Quick Links Need Help?


About Us | Rules & Guidelines | TOS Policy | Privacy Policy

Orbiter-Forum is hosted at Orbithangar.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2007 - 2017, Orbiter-Forum.com. All rights reserved.