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Old 08-18-2016, 05:11 AM   #31
Face
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Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
 I'm afraid what I have in mind is a bit larger than just a runway or two. I want to flatten a rather large area to make room for airfields and other proper base items. Edwards for example is more than just the main concrete runway (22/04). It also consists of the runways on Roger's Dry Lake (Most early shuttle missions and the X-15 used one of these rather than the concrete runway). Then we have Vandenberg which consists of the main airfield on North Base with most of the SLCs located on South Base. Here we are talking about 10's square kilometers.
So there should be the ability to combine tiles to larger ones, to see the continuous picture of a larger area. Still I think what you describe could be achieved for first quick results by means of heightmaps and a good graphics program. In the later you have all kind of tools to draw various filled shapes.

Would it help you to get forward, if I implement the following into treeman:
  • the base conversion feature also creates a PNG of all tiles composed, for each layer - this is the orientation overlay picture
  • also a 16-bit grayscale picture is created from the info in the corresponding elevation tiles, covering the same area - this is the basic heightmap
  • in addition, the elev_mod tiles are converted to 16-bit grayscale with transparent global color the same as the alpha mask in the tiles - this would be the heightmap overlay, and also the working area for you
  • I could make a quick python-fu function for GIMP to take these three inputs and combine them to a ready-to-edit display. You'd see the opaque base heightmap, overlayed the opaque alpha blended work area over it, and the orientation overlay picture with some level of transparency over this. The only active layer would be the work area, where you can then do whatever you want. E.g. identify color (==height), fill this color into a freely drawn shape, use a brush with smooth edges (erosion/dilation).
  • another option in treeman could then take the finished work area and convert it back to elev_mod tiles
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Old 08-18-2016, 05:35 AM   #32
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I wouldn't use greyscale maps but rather create 3d file (obj, or even msh) out of it. That way you can have much more precise control over it and can fit base objects precisely to terrain (buildings on slopped surfaces, non flat taxiways etc.) That way you can for example add terrain vertical features vertical or "negative slope" ones.

Ideally a tool that grabs terrain tile by coordinates, extracts both height and texture and converts it to textured msh file . Then, after it can export it back to tile format and texture and pack it back to archive or leave as "add-on" texture with correct filenames for height data and texture.

Neat idea would be selection for subdividing mesh and texture data on import from orbiter, so you can locally have higher resolution.

My 2 cents.

Last edited by Loru; 08-18-2016 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 08-18-2016, 07:19 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Loru View Post
 I wouldn't use greyscale maps but rather create 3d file (obj, or even msh) out of it. That way you can have much more precise control over it and can fit base objects precisely to terrain (buildings on slopped surfaces, non flat taxiways etc.) That way you can for example add terrain vertical features vertical or "negative slope" ones.

Ideally a tool that grabs terrain tile by coordinates, extracts both height and texture and converts it to textured msh file . Then, after it can export it back to tile format and texture and pack it back to archive or leave as "add-on" texture with correct filenames for height data and texture.

Neat idea would be selection for subdividing mesh and texture data on import from orbiter, so you can locally have higher resolution.
These are good ideas. There definitely is some kind of tool vacuum there to fill up.

However, I think it is easier for people to edit a 2D picture than to edit a 3D mesh, especially in this use-case (quick flattening of area around bases). But of course I have only myself as reference point here. Any more base developers out there willing to give input?
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Old 08-18-2016, 08:05 AM   #34
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As a base developer, I'm waiting for 2016 before I start a new one. I don't understand the new texture/tile? structure at all, so I can't be much help there unfortunately.

While working on Corn Ranch using RC4, I can see a problem on the road between the assembly area, and the pads. That would need flattening, but I've no idea how to do it.

N.
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:53 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Notebook View Post
 While working on Corn Ranch using RC4, I can see a problem on the road between the assembly area, and the pads. That would need flattening, but I've no idea how to do it.
With your skills, would you rather use a paint-like program to edit a 2D picture, or use a modeling software to edit a 3D terrain mesh, in order to do the flattening? What would you expect from a tool that helps you in doing so? Besides doing it all fully automated, of course .
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:59 AM   #36
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I'm sorry for being out of the loop, but is there a simple way to update HR textures?

My problem is that I have no idea which ones do I have, and even if I get the whole package again I will probably have the same problem in a few months if updates do occur within that period.

Some date/version/MD5 tile checking tool that gives you update links to the tiles/bodies you're missing or are not up to date would be nice, especially if it could be automated to some degree.

If something already exists, download link please?
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Old 08-18-2016, 10:50 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Notebook View Post
 As a base developer, I'm waiting for 2016 before I start a new one. I don't understand the new texture/tile? structure at all, so I can't be much help there unfortunately.

While working on Corn Ranch using RC4, I can see a problem on the road between the assembly area, and the pads. That would need flattening, but I've no idea how to do it.

N.
I don't understand Notebook. You made it so often.

The structure of the texture/tile have not changed in it's principle. Levels, subdivisions and names to give tiles a place, horizontally and "vertically" ( levels ) in the map.

The names have changed but it's for the rest as it was, at least for the surftiles.

Tiles have an identification N/S, E/W.

For example, in the defunt ( and next coming ) mappicker a Hires as the EarthHi_12_07 ( 12 from South and 7 from West ), at level 13 for the surftiles, have 32 subfolders ( N/S ) and 32 tiles in each ( E/W ); 512 px for each tile.

The first (upper) subfolder is named 000096 ( the maximum in the N/S direction in the mappicker for EarthHi is 15 so; at level 13, 15/32 ( starting from 0 ! ) + 14/32 + 13/32 = 95 ) so the first subfolder in EarthHi_12_07 start at 96; it's the same principle on the E/W direction.

Quadtree.

And here post #39
http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthr...t=37289&page=3

A question is in the correspondance between elev and surf. Dr Schweiger gives an explanation in the forum that i've not completely read ( and that i will certainly have to reread, and reread and reread again). For example in the low ? high ? res zip, one can see that one an have 13 level for example, as Elev, and only 12 level for Surf.

Post #49
http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthr...t=33798&page=4

Overall, one can do all this in the rustic way: Xnview, a splitter as TileMage Image Splitter and one or two other tools. It takes time. In french: ça use !


Good day.




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Last edited by fort; 08-18-2016 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 08-18-2016, 11:14 AM   #38
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@martins: I apologize if this has been asked before, but do you also plan to replace the old ring texture system? If not, will switching e.g. Saturn to new texture mode still use the old ring texture?
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Old 08-18-2016, 11:32 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Face View Post
 With your skills, would you rather use a paint-like program to edit a 2D picture, or use a modeling software to edit a 3D terrain mesh, in order to do the flattening? What would you expect from a tool that helps you in doing so? Besides doing it all fully automated, of course .
I'm happier with 3d mesh manipulation, used 3DS and now using A3CD. I have done some alpha-blending/feathering on surface tiles, but I find it hard.

I suppose a tool that would take a set of lat/long points as a polygon, and flatten the internal area. Also, flatten an area between two points to a certain width, for runways, taxiways, roads.

Thanks, N.
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Old 08-18-2016, 11:32 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Face View Post
 With your skills, would you rather use a paint-like program to edit a 2D picture, or use a modeling software to edit a 3D terrain mesh, in order to do the flattening? What would you expect from a tool that helps you in doing so? Besides doing it all fully automated, of course .
Hello,

I'm not immediatly concerned by height values ( elevations ), maybe someday, and i was searching, some months in the past, to undersand how was those *.Elev files made, created. That extension seems, im my memory refer to an other simulator ( tanks ? ) with a dedicated program to made it. I remember also questions of elevation in Worldwind ( and i suppose in Google ).

Good day.

Last edited by fort; 08-18-2016 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 08-18-2016, 11:36 AM   #41
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To Fort in #37 above.

done lots of tiles, but all derived from Pablo's Surface Tile Wizard. Getting lat/long points cutting them out, and making textures for the tiles.
So the only bit of Orbiter I change is the .cfg file with the new tile entries.

I've never used .tex files, and really don't understand what Face and friends might be up to with their tool-making.

I'll wait for the dust to settle over 2016!

N.
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Old 08-18-2016, 11:50 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fort View Post
 I'm not immediatly concerned by height values ( elevations ), maybe someday, and i was searching, some months in the past, to undersand how was those *.Elev files made, created. That extension seems, im my memory refer to an other simulator ( tanks ? ) with a dedicated program to made it. I remember also questions of elevation in Worldwind ( and i suppose in Google ).
Martin documented the Elev format pretty well IMHO. I've checked the documentation with the real thing and can understand how it works.

---------- Post added at 13:50 ---------- Previous post was at 13:40 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notebook View Post
 I suppose a tool that would take a set of lat/long points as a polygon, and flatten the internal area. Also, flatten an area between two points to a certain width, for runways, taxiways, roads.
That's another cool idea right there. What about the height it has to be flattened to? Minimum of the area? What about edges? Hard cut at first (i.e. sudden jump in height value, causing the render engine to make a steep spline)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notebook View Post
 I've never used .tex files, and really don't understand what Face and friends might be up to with their tool-making.
Besides the *.tree-file manipulation talk, the last discussion revolved around converting 2010 bases to 2016 bases.
The problem is: with planets having new texturing activated in 2016 (e.g. Earth), old-style base tile definition is not supported anymore. That would mean many high-quality addons to look quite dull in 2016. The idea is to ease that a little bit by providing a tool that can do the conversion. The automatic mapping from old naming-scheme to the new one for highres tiles is done already, but of course there are other aspects to it like the mentioned flattening.

Last edited by Face; 08-18-2016 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 08-18-2016, 11:52 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notebook View Post
 To Fort in #37 above.

I'll wait for the dust to settle over 2016!

N.
Not the badest choice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Face View Post
 Martin documented the Elev format pretty well IMHO. I've checked the documentation with the real thing and can understand how it works.
I have read it in diagonal. And also the barrier of the language. I'll take more time to understand it.

Thank you Face.

Last edited by fort; 08-18-2016 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 08-18-2016, 02:50 PM   #44
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Face: give me few hours. I'll outline possible tool in add-on request thread. Need coffee first as I've just woken up and proper outline would need some reference pics.

---------- Post added at 04:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 PM ----------

Posted here: http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthr...545#post539545
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:50 PM   #45
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Quote:
With your skills, would you rather use a paint-like program to edit a 2D picture, or use a modeling software to edit a 3D terrain mesh, in order to do the flattening?
Why not both? A 2d paint-like interface for "quick" flattening with the option to output a 3d mesh for fine tuning and building placement in a separate modeling program.
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