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Old 01-16-2009, 05:34 PM   #76
RisingFury
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Originally Posted by Hielor View Post
 The integrated chips will run Win7 fine, you just won't be able to have Aero.

Seriously, do you work for Microsoft?
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Old 01-16-2009, 06:48 PM   #77
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 Seriously, do you work for Microsoft?
I can't speak for Win7, but integrated chips run Vista just fine without Aero. We have a whole office full of Dell machines to vouch for that. Not one complaint from the staff about graphics.
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Old 01-16-2009, 07:53 PM   #78
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There's that mythical linux 286 that can stream full screen video at 1280x1024 res at 30fps and relay it with a USB web-cam again.
No one here is claiming you can do that on a 286. It can be done on a processor running at less than XP's minimum requirements, much less Vista's. Less than 10% of all destop users (personal or businesss) have any real need for more than a 1Ghz processor, and an OS any more advanced than Win2K. They don't need or use features added since Office 2000, and were forced to upgrade (and re-train employees on the new versions) simply to support MS's bottom line. While this may have been good for MS's economy, it was detrimental to the economy of the vast majority of business, and the economy in general. Money spent on un-needed uprades was money not spent researching new products or implementing new services. It meant an expense with no actual ROI, spending money for no net gain.

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Yeah.... this is why we can't get the sales staff to change their practices to take better advantage of the tools they already have, even though the "difference" would be minimal and yeild greater results.
This is a failure in management, and has nothing to do with which OS or software you use. It actually makes my point - it's as difficult and expensive to train people to use what you have as it is to train them on a new (but very similar in function) software. It's as easy (or difficult, depending on how you want to see it) to train someone to use Open Office instead of Office 98 as it is to train them to use Office 2007 instead of Office 98. The "they already know how to use what we have" argument fails, since Windows or Office upgrades require retraining as much as migrating to Linux or Open Office.

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And the old super heavy luggables that masquaraded as laptops with tiny screens and few interfaces simply aren't going to cut it when the sales force demos to a client.
No-one claims that nobody needs newer equipment. However, Linux will work on that shiny new laptop also. Engineers, Video Editors, and others have a real need for faster systems. The secretary, however, can get by just as well on a 1.2Ghz Pentium, and upgrading their computer beyond that is a waste of money and resources.

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See, when I first started as an on-staffer (rather than consultant), I was like you. I thought, why not go to pricewatch and get the cheapest everything, I can assemble it, and we can save a few hundred. That was without even having to train any of the other staff on anything new. But the simple act of going to multiple places to buy stuff made it too expensive (purhcasing and recieving dept's costs), not to mention ANY potential issue with ANYthing at all, took longer and more money to deal with. Going to an OEM was cheaper, even if it appeared more expensive.
No, you were not like me. I've never advocated getting the cheapest anything. I have always advocated buying quality products, even when more expensive initially. Spending an extra $50 on a quality power supply instead of a cheap "no-name" can save you hundreds down the road. As you pointed out before, CDW is a very valuable resource.

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We are a FOR proft, but we are a TINY company that was bought 2 years ago for 3 million dollars
3 million dollars is not a small business. Small businesses have values well under One million, usually less than $2k. That is a medium business, even if you only employ a half dozen people.

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Speaking of which..... now that I think about the shop.... we have a Hendricks 5-axis router (cost well into the 6 figures), it's run by a desktop PC. For something that expensive, and that important, you'd think that the OEM would have used Linux on the white-box they supplied. They didn't. It was initially 95. Never had any problems with it. Now it's on 2K Pro, still no problems. Had it for years.
Modern routers don't require a seperate PC to run them. But thanks for making my point - you have a solution that works and don't see a good reason to upgrade it to a modern more powerfull solution - even though a new Cisco router would be more powerfull, and cost much less than what it's replacing did.

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Well given that I go through Windows Explorer and double click on the mp3 which launches WinAMP
That's fine if you want to play a single song, but winapm's playlists rely on paths so moving that collection to a different drive will render any playlist you have useless. Also, please note that I said "your media player" not "Media Player". I also use Winamp, but not the latest version which is packed with features I would never use and hogs resources I'd rather use for something else.

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Anyone who can't afford that 3Ghz P4.
I'm sure you could get one for $50 these days.
I'm sure I'm not the only person here who would like to know where. Provided, of course, that this is made with quality components and didn't "fall off the back of a truck" somewhere.

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Large buisnesses are HP, M$, GM, etc. Small buisnesses are in the sub 100 desktop range.
Small businesses are in the sub 20 desktop range, and provide 65% of the jobs in this country, according to the Dept. of Labor.

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That one person's desktop running a DB is great until they kick the plug, or spill something on it, or break the optical drive (and have to shut it down) or get hit with malware, etc. Great for your 5 node network,
Yes, great for a 5 node network, which is the majority of networks in this country. Yet earlier, you said that they should go to the expense of getting a server.

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And also, there is nothing wrong with leveraging your product. I don't HAVE to sell you something, I didn't force you to not install the competitors products, I just chose not to sell to you if you did so. It's a subtle point, but an important one.
Actually, MS DID force people to intall their product, even if a competitors product was installed also. That's one of the reasons they were convicted. Forcing someone to pay for your product when they don't want it is wrong. It's essentially a "tax" and only the Government has the right to tax people.

The idea behind competition isn't doing whatever it takes to win. Its to be the best, and win on merit. If you have to break the rules to win, then your product isn't good enough. It should win simply because it's better than the competition, not because it broke the rules to kill the competition. Should football players carry guns on the feild so they can shoot the opposing players to win, or should they just be better players?

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Technically it's your duty as a citizen to not follow bad law.
Absolutely incorrect. Please re-read the constitution you claim to revere. Your duty is to protest those laws, petition your representatives to change them, or elect representatives who will. You can challenge a law in court without needing to break it first - that is one of the functions of the Supreme Court. Not following the rules simply because you don't like them doesn't always make you any sort of a patriot, just a criminal.

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Trouble is, people think "just because you disagree with the law doesn't mean you can ignore it". And THAT mentality is why I'm convinced that the 18th Amendment wouldn't be repealed if it were passed today.
You can try to ignore a law you don't like, but it's not going to be easy when you're in jail for breaking it. And the 18th Amendment couldn't even get passed in the first place today. Several states have passed laws prohibiting same-sex marraiage,, and those laws usually get repealed by the state supreme courts because they are unconstitutional. The mechanism for rpeealing unjust laws is even stronger today than it was in the 30's, you just need to use the process and do it legally.

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Agree with the last statement. But I only point out the "superiority of Windows" (if you wish to use that phrasing, I wouldn't, but hey...) because of the other side saying it sucks for everything, should NEVER be touched,
No-one in this thread said Windows sucks for everything. We just get tired of people like you who claim it's better than it is, and don't like the alternatives. You clearly seem to think that Windows is a better solution for everyone, when it's often not.

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In short, the claims of Linux's ability to run on paperweights is the same thing as the ricer argument of horsepower per litre. It's a non-issue, and if we REALLY focused everything on that, we all suffer for it in the long run.
But that 300hp WRT wouldn't be avilable for you to own if "ricers" hadn't found ways to get more power from a smaller engine. The technology that is used to make those cars comes from "ricers", or hot rodders, if you prefer. The technology that Subaru uses to make it's WRT engines comes from their racing department. It was developed so that they could win against other cars without breaking the rules by having more displacement than the rules for that class allowed. If Subaru was the only car manufacturer (or just had an overwhelming semi-monopoly) they would have no reason to innovate, ant those high performance vehicals wouldn't ever have been created in the first place.

The same holds true for computers. If Windows had had any real competition all along, it would be far better today than it is. Look at how long Internet Explorer stagnated before Firefox started giving it a run for it's money. Microsoft may have helped the PC platform be what it is today, but it would be even better if they had had to actually compete on merit. It's not very intelligent to give them credit for helping advance a product when their business practice actually limited advancement, not fostered it. Would Intel be making multicore 45 nm processors available at such a low cost if they didn't have to compete with AMD? I think not.

If MS was truly responsible for pushing the advancement in hardware as you claim, no-one would be offering computers with 4 times the power needed to run Windows. The harware advances you credit MS for are the result of healthy competition between the hardware manufactuters, the same as the fast cars you like are the result of healthy competition between automakers. MS has nothing to do with it. They still compete to build the fastest supercomputer, even though no-one actually buys supercomputers anymore - they use distributed processing such as clusters and clouds. Historical fact of life - Competion breeds advancement - monopolies stifle it.

BTW, Heilor, Orbiter runs just fine on my 900Ghz PC with a 64MB graphics card. I don't need any more computer than I have to enjoy Orbiter, or any of the other games I personally play. I'd like to be playing GTA 4, and that won't run on this box. That's why I'm saving up for a PS3. It's a better platform for most of today's games than a PC.
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Old 01-16-2009, 10:19 PM   #79
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 Absolutely incorrect. Please re-read the constitution you claim to revere. Your duty is to protest those laws, petition your representatives to change them, or elect representatives who will. You can challenge a law in court without needing to break it first - that is one of the functions of the Supreme Court. Not following the rules simply because you don't like them doesn't always make you any sort of a patriot, just a criminal.
Well, to be fair, you can't look to a legal document to tell you when it is and isn't OK to ignore the law. If you find an exception in the law and make use of it, that's not ignoring the law. As far as the law is concerned, it's never OK to ignore the law. But the duty Bloodspray mentions is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, but the same document also mentions that the bar for when rebellion becomes a right and a duty is fairly high. Even if I believed antitrust laws were bad (I don't), they're not bad enough. Bad enough is when the law says to worship the president/king/chancellor/whatever as god. Bad enough is when the law says to turn Jews in so they can be taken to death camps. And so forth.
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Old 01-17-2009, 03:47 AM   #80
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 Seriously, do you work for Microsoft?
Whether or not I work for Microsoft is irrelevant. What is relevant is that I have used three separate machines on Vista that had no more than integrated graphics, and they ran fine for standard everyday tasks when Aero was disabled. They weren't particularly fast either. tblaxland agrees, so either he and I (and everyone else who runs Vista without complaining on an integrated chip) are crazy, or integrated graphics are fine if you don't use Aero.

I'd also like to point out that the Microsoft-published minimum specs for Win7 presented earlier in this thread included a similar point: Acceptable graphics card needed for Aero, 32MB (which is what most integrated graphics do) "card" needed to run it without Aero.

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Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
 BTW, Heilor, Orbiter runs just fine on my 900Ghz PC with a 64MB graphics card. I don't need any more computer than I have to enjoy Orbiter, or any of the other games I personally play. I'd like to be playing GTA 4, and that won't run on this box. That's why I'm saving up for a PS3. It's a better platform for most of today's games than a PC.
The problem is with DirectX 7 (which was released 10 years ago). From what I gather, some MS exec decided that they could drop hardware support for DirectX versions prior to 9 in Vista and just run them in a software emulation layer. That doesn't particularly work well. However, with Doug's VistaBoost mod, I don't have as big of a problem in Orbiter any more. It still runs far slower than I'd like (and far slower than I think it should on this hardware), but it's very playable.

My laptop is processor-capped in these things already (I believe) so that certainly doesn't help. Gaming performance on most modern games is pretty much the same(if not better on Vista) between XP/Vista on identical systems--there's plenty of benchmarks out there showing that.

I've never been able to get into console gaming--I absolutely cannot stand the input controller. If I were able to use a keyboard and mouse to control my games on the PS3 or XBOX, I'd be all over that. I can't, so I'm not. If that works for you, go for it--a lot of developers are killing PC gaming anyway by either not releasing for the PC or delaying PC releases (like GTA IV) far behind the console releases, due to pirating fears.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:06 AM   #81
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  If I were able to use a keyboard and mouse to control my games on the PS3 or XBOX, I'd be all over that.
Ayyyyy-men! Give me a keyboard, mouse, and joystick and I'll play a game on any system that can handle it. Give me one of those awful console controllers and it doesn't matter how well the system performs, because my performance goes out the window. (Or the linuc, whichever applies ).
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:48 AM   #82
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 Ayyyyy-men! Give me a keyboard, mouse, and joystick and I'll play a game on any system that can handle it. Give me one of those awful console controllers and it doesn't matter how well the system performs, because my performance goes out the window. (Or the linuc, whichever applies ).
My friends and I back in high school would occasionally have LAN parties. I was a fairly dangerous player on the computer when we played things like Battlefield or similar stuff (or heck, DotA)...but man, when we had our giant sixteen-person Halo fragfest, guess who was on the business end of the "frag" more often than not? I just ended up holding a shotgun and waiting for people to come around the corner. I could *almost* handle that.

Edit: And I never thought I'd say this as the conversation turns away from OSes, but: I do believe we're getting off topic . Unless, of course, you consider the "OS" in the gaming consoles...
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Old 01-17-2009, 06:20 AM   #83
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Most of the multiplayer gaming I've done has been on consoles, and while I've never done 16-man Halo-fests, I have done 3 or 4 man stuff on Halo and similar games. And yes, I know the "business end of the frag" feeling, which is why I never caught on to first person shooters, because of all console games, they're the ones that I have the most horrible time with. Actually, I do worse on console flight sims, but the genre isn't popular on consoles, and I already had plenty of experience with them on computers, so the console experience didn't ruin them for me.
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Old 01-17-2009, 08:04 AM   #84
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 ... The average computer user these days won't be able to make heads or tails of a Linux install, especially not if you hand them a command prompt and tell them to do something useful with it. That's not the people it's aiming at.
I know what you're saying, but some distributions (I'm thinking of Ubuntu) have very nice graphical installers which weigh up very well when compared to the windows installer.
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Old 01-17-2009, 08:36 AM   #85
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 I know what you're saying, but some distributions (I'm thinking of Ubuntu) have very nice graphical installers which weigh up very well when compared to the windows installer.
I wasn't actually referring to the install process but rather a "Linux install" as in the Linux OS installed on a machine. And yeah, I know that some of the higher-end distros have good installers, but I haven't used any of those. One of the first comments my roommate had about Vista was how easy the install was (clean install, not a new machine with it pre-installed).

One of the issues that an average user may have with Linux is that it's a lot harder to get help for common issues you might have. It's really unavoidable, due to the relatively lower user base.

Let's say we have a pair of twins, Bob and Bill, who have identical (low) computer knowledge. Bob got Windows, Bill got Linux. Gidget X has failed on Bob's machine, and gidget Y (which is the Linux equivalent of X) has failed on Bill's machine.

Bob goes to google and types in "Gidget X crashes". The first link takes him to a forum discussion about Gidget X crash issues, which has several possible solutions listed there along with a link to the Microsoft Knowledge Base article for Gidget X problems. Problem solved.

----------------------------------------

Bill goes to google and types in "Gidget Y crashes". All the results he sees in the first few pages are all technobabble and source code discussions. He finds a linux forum, creates an account, and posts a new thread there describing the situation and asking what causes that. The reply is "Sorry, but this is the forum for gidget Z. You want the gidget Y forums, over thataway" (and a link is provided.)

Muttering about too many forums, Bill goes and signs up on the gidget Y forums. He's not a total noob, so he glances over the "help" forums first but doesn't see anything that seems to help him. So he posts a new thread and subscribes to replies so he'll know when someone's answered. A few minutes later, he gets a notification in his inbox that there was a reply, so he scoots back to the gidget Y forums and reads the reply: "Did you read the man pages?"
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Old 01-17-2009, 07:19 PM   #86
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One of the issues that an average user may have with Linux is that it's a lot harder to get help for common issues you might have. It's really unavoidable, due to the relatively lower user base.
I've actually had the opposite experience. Years ago, when I upgraded this box from 98 to XP, I had a problem with the OS "disintegrating" (files disappearing or becoming corrupted) every couple weeks. MS told me the HD was bad, and to replace it, as did every other Windows support forum/system I could find. I knew better, Linux was running fine on that drive, and every disk analyzer I had all showed the drive to be fine. Eventually, on about the 20th re-install, XP "took" correctly, and hasn't had that problem since (over 6 years now). It's still running on that same "defective" HD, as is Linux. Haven't lost a file since. This has been typical for all my Windows related problems.

On the other hand, every problem I've had with Linux has been solved within 48 hours either through the distro's support forum, or through Googling the problem (hint, Google has modified search page to help prioritize Linux results called "Google Linux"). Overall, I've found the help offered by the Linux community to be far more knowlegable and accurate than that offered by the Windows community.

Most people who claim "Windows is easier" do so simply because they never bothered to learn as much about Linux as they did Windows. Ignorance always makes things more difficult, and many people seem to think that Windows skills = general computer skills. They aren't willing to put any real effort into learning how to use/fix Linux, and somehow the effort they put into learning Windows slips their mind, since they learned it a while ago and may not even have paid attention to the learning curve they underwent. In other words, Windows isn't easier, you're just more familiar with it. It's just a difficult (or easy) to learn as Linux, stop expecting to learn Linux in a week or two when you've spent years learning all you know about about Windows.

This is made worse by all the schools that claim to teach "Computer IT", when all they are actually teaching is "Windows IT". It creates a false expectation in the minds of it's students. The come out thinking they know how to use Computers (not just Windows), and when they can't understand Linux they say that Linux is stupid, instead of themselves. The local tech school claims it will teach you "everything you need to know to get a high paying job running webservers" (quoted from the brochure), but only teaches Window web servers even though Windows is only used on about one third of the servers on the Web. According to the Department of labor, a RHCE will average 30% more pay than a MSCE, and someone with both will earn 25% more than that.
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Old 01-17-2009, 08:42 PM   #87
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 Most people who claim "Windows is easier" do so simply because they never bothered to learn as much about Linux as they did Windows. Ignorance always makes things more difficult, and many people seem to think that Windows skills = general computer skills. They aren't willing to put any real effort into learning how to use/fix Linux, and somehow the effort they put into learning Windows slips their mind, since they learned it a while ago and may not even have paid attention to the learning curve they underwent. In other words, Windows isn't easier, you're just more familiar with it. It's just a difficult (or easy) to learn as Linux, stop expecting to learn Linux in a week or two when you've spent years learning all you know about about Windows.
Thanks for calling me ignorant. I have Linux (Slackware 10.2, which I know is not the most newb-friendly distro, but it was recommended for both the Thinkpad 600E and the HP Pavilion N5415 by two separate sources, and I like consistency) installed on five of my seven computers. Most of my for-fun dev work these days is done on one of those, and most of that work is done in console mode without starting X. I've also gone as far as to customize the install disc to have some more of what I need and less of what I don't.

So please, less insulting of me personally. Moving on.

The bolding above in your quote is mine. That's exactly why Linux is less user-friendly to the average PC user than Windows. The person is used to using Windows, and they want a computer that they can use, and they can't be arsed to learn something new. To be fair, it was the exact same problem with Vista and Office 2007, so...yeah.

Plus, if you missed the humor in my Bob/Bill example, then I'm sorry.
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Old 01-17-2009, 09:12 PM   #88
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Alot of this is a "how people are" vs. "how people should be" question. Linux might be a perfect operating system if people were perfect. They aren't. OTOH, Windows and MacOS are aimed at or near the lowest common denominator of computer users. They might be perfect if people were irredeemably imperfect and stupid. But they aren't.
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Old 01-17-2009, 09:31 PM   #89
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Heilor, I was not calling you personally ignorant. Perhaps I could have said "Lack of knoweledge makes things more difficult", but "Lack of knoweledge" is pretty much the dictionary definition of "Ignorance". Excuse me for being concise. I am fully aware (by your post in the "Browser Wars thread") that you are a linux user.

My point was that people seem to think that just because they know Windows, they know computers in general. When Linux doesn't behave exactly like Windows, they blame Linux instead of accepting personal responsibility for their ign, er, lack of knoweledge.

While your Bill and Bob example may have been humorously phrased, it is inaccurate to my experience. It paints Linux as being far more difficult to deal with than it is, and makes it sound as if tech support is a painfull, insulting experience. My personal experience says otherwise.

And if you don't want to learn a new OS, continue using whatever version of Windows you have now - long after MS has EOL'd it and stopped patching it's security flaws. Face it, using computers requires relearning, no matter which OS you use. Migrating from one OS to another isn't much more difficult than going from one version of a particular OS to another version of the same OS. This is also true for Word Processing software, and just about every other kind of app out there. Inertia is simply not a valid reason to continue using one "brand" over another, since inertia only exists in peoples minds when it comes to computers and software. As educated, intelligent people, we accomplish more by educating people than we do by reinforcing tired and inaccurate stereotypes.
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Old 01-17-2009, 11:03 PM   #90
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There is all this talk about "what people should do." Why "should" they do that? To make the Universe a happy place? It almost sounds like a religion -- "You must convert to the One True Operating System." But why is that? Isn't it every person's right to choose whichever operating system works best for them? I use both Windows and Linux for work, and I do like using Linux for server boxes, but that is my personal choice. For desktop work (which is where I spend 95% of my time), I much prefer Windows. If Linux really was easy-to-use for the average joe it would be the dominant OS in the market right now instead of being only a tiny fraction, especially since it is free (Google 'linux market share' for details). The simple fact is that the vast majority of computer users have neither the time nor the patience to slog through six pages of documentation and Linux support forums on the Internet to figure out why the new sound card, video card, or printer they purchased doesn't work on their Linux box, or exactly how to compile and install the driver. That doesn't make those computer users "wrong" or "stupid" -- it just means they have better things to do than send six hours trying to figure out why device or feature 'X' doesn't work.

Some users like to tinker with PCs, but most do not. So why must those people "convert to Linux"? What is served by that? If you don't like Windows, don't use it. If you don't like Linux, don't use it. Both operating systems have their place in the world, but IMO calling average computer users "lazy" just because they don't want to spend hours and hours getting their compters to work like they want is somewhat disingenuous.
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