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Old 12-12-2008, 04:55 PM   #61
dougkeenan
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First cynicism, now a hazy analogy. Are you having a good day?

Anyway, do I understand it correctly that in your opinion manned space exploration must make a profit to be justified (i.e., "grown-up")?
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:15 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Orbinaut Pete View Post
 So then, in 2017, when the ISS ends, the purpose of US manned spaceflight will be.......?
Depends on the space agency/company I think. For NASA it'll be returning to the Moon and go beyond (and I think it is time to do so). But I think that China and Russia also might reach for the Moon and Mars in future (maybe NASA, ESA and Roscomos together). Or Russia and Europe might build another space station.

Anyway, I can't wait to see Ares lifting off. The future of manned space flight does not look bad only because the Shuttle is going to be retired.


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 ...Anyway, do I understand it correctly that in your opinion manned space exploration must make a profit to be justified (i.e., "grown-up")?
I personally don't think that way at all. Without national space flight, we wouldn't have seen Apollo, Soyuz, STS, ISS and all the other stuff. I'm for national space flight programs and national funding. I would not like to see industries taking over this job, and make it a profit game. But I doubt that there is a market for that anyway, which would enable stuff like the ISS and returning to the Moon. Only with industries involved, we would not see any manned space flights for decades IMHO (as I always mention: we also don't even see a second Concorde, while the Concorde was a national project too). We'd see satellite launches (and maybe a few manned suborbital gimmickry) but that's it.

I'm happy with NASA and its history (except the STS project which lasts way too long). Keep going and head for Ares!
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:06 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by dougkeenan View Post
 Anyway, do I understand it correctly that in your opinion manned space exploration must make a profit to be justified (i.e., "grown-up")?
Pretty much. If the only way to get people to pay for something is to stick the tax man's gun in their faces, then justification for that project becomes difficult.

Don't mind me, I'm just that minarchist in every crowd...
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Old 12-12-2008, 11:28 PM   #64
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[Looks at thread subject] "Orion/Ares Updates"
[Looks at recent posts] So when is this thread going to be locked for going ridiculously off-topic?
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Old 12-12-2008, 11:38 PM   #65
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When did it do so?

[Looks at thread subject] "Orion/Ares Updates"

Yep, manned space exploration.

You not having a good day either?
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Old 12-12-2008, 11:40 PM   #66
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Come one guys, there are plenty of other threads where you can bash the space program
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Old 12-12-2008, 11:56 PM   #67
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 Come one guys, there are plenty of other threads where you can bash the space program
I'm trying to stick up for it!

You don't consider this Griffin "news" a shot across the bow for Ares, or you know of another thread where such is being discussed?
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Old 12-13-2008, 02:56 AM   #68
Moonwalker
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 Come one guys, there are plenty of other threads where you can bash the space program
Those self-proclaimed NASA and Constellation experts do it almost everywhere whenever they can. It's an interesting and partly funny phenomena. But I can't wait to seem them go quiet once Ares I and V is in orbit

And by the way...

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic...,0,72162.story

Anyway, don't trust on news articles too much. It's a lot of hot air, or lets better say it's just letters.
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:11 AM   #69
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 Those self-proclaimed NASA and Constellation experts do it almost everywhere whenever they can. It's an interesting and partly funny phenomena. But I can't wait to seem them go quiet once Ares I and V is in orbit

And by the way...

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic...,0,72162.story

Anyway, don't trust on news articles too much. It's a lot of hot air, or lets better say it's just letters.

It is refreshing to have anyone actually hope for the success of the program. Kinda rare these days.

But the lack of any substantial goals seems deflating. If all this pans out we will be able to get to the ISS cheaper and so it goes. Gemini Titan could do that. Now what?

If I were you, ESA and Russia, It seems to me this is the time to go for it.

As long as our Govt does not try to hold back our private industry into space, we may have a chance to stay in the game.

As it stands right now, the fortitude to progress on this front is as firm as our elected official's willingness to be forthright with their public.

If any thing goes wrong, run for cover.

Good time to watch Frank Borman on "From the Earth to the Moon" when he had to defend the Apollo program in front of Congress to continue after the Apollo 1 fire.

So, what's changed?
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:13 AM   #70
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Good time to watch Frank Borman on "From the Earth to the Moon" when he had to defend the Apollo program in front of Congress to continue after the Apollo 1 fire.

So, what's changed?
No one has died
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:23 AM   #71
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 No one has died
I truly appreciate your concern, but that was not the point.

The point was, what has happened to the spirit of achievement beyond just the needs of today, speaking of politicians and bureaucrats.
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:35 AM   #72
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Well, since I presume you guys are talking about me, I never claimed to be a "NASA expert", nor do I hope Constellation fails. Should any or all of the program hardware actually be built and flown, I heartily wish it a perfect record.

There is no conflict with hoping for success of any existing program on the one hand and criticizing the philosophy behind that program on the other.
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:48 AM   #73
Moonwalker
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 It is refreshing to have anyone actually hope for the success of the program. Kinda rare these days.
I think it was always rare. If anything is uncertain, it's space flight. It's always technological challanges and political/financial challanges. But people are just too much sceptical.

"Beautiful simplicity: Do what? Moon. When? End of decade."
Michael Collins

"Each challange has to do what I think most people thought was impossible, including me."
Eugene Cernan

"The very first time I saw the Shuttle sitting on the back of that 747 I thought: we have screwed up bad, this is never going to work."
Robert Crippen

And I don't really want to know what non-involved people all over the world (even orbinauts are non-involved ) thought about all those projects. Nothing has changed. There will always be chitchat and sceptics.
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Old 12-13-2008, 06:04 AM   #74
RichWall
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Originally Posted by Andy44 View Post
 
There is no conflict with hoping for success of any existing program on the one hand and criticizing the philosophy behind that program on the other.
No issue there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonwalker View Post
 I think it was always rare. If anything is uncertain, it's space flight. It's always technological challanges and political/financial challanges. But people are just too much sceptical.

"Beautiful simplicity: Do what? Moon. When? End of decade."
Michael Collins

"Each challange has to do what I think most people thought was impossible, including me."
Eugene Cernan

"The very first time I saw the Shuttle sitting on the back of that 747 I thought: we have screwed up bad, this is never going to work."
Robert Crippen

And I don't really want to know what non-involved people all over the world (even orbinauts are non-involved ) thought about all those projects. Nothing has changed. There will always be chitchat and sceptics.
Good post
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Old 12-13-2008, 06:21 AM   #75
Moonwalker
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One another note:

I always hear voices concerning the riscs of Ares ("the shaker" blah..., which people basically got from certain blogs and news articels). So what? The Space Shuttle lifted off manned on its first test flight into orbit. James Lovell is rather right when even he complains that today people are afraid of heaving accidents. It is really annoying. Space flight always is risky. And I'm wondering about all those people who unconscious claim to know risk prevention better than NASA engineers.
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