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Old 12-11-2008, 02:35 PM   #46
Orbinaut Pete
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And a lunar landing project, which will become financially unbearable even before the first astronaut landed on the moon, is not great. That is again flags and footprints, with the number of missions being cut down before science can really start.
Well, the purpose of the first few missions will be scouting for a location to build a moonbase, after that all missions will be construction of the base.

Also, seems to me that the government, at least in Britain, always say they have no money, but when they need to they can suddenly find 600bn to help out banks?
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Old 12-11-2008, 02:43 PM   #47
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 Well, the purpose of the first few missions will be scouting for a location to build a moonbase, after that all missions will be construction of the base.
And you do know that the moon base is still not funded at all or appearing in the budget? It is planned to get funded after the Ares I is operational and no longer needs R&D costs.

But until then, it is still very easy to just don't fund it at all or reduce the moon base funding or to just push the moon base back in time, so a later decision can cancel it.

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 Also, seems to me that the government, at least in Britain, always say they have no no money, but when they need to they can suddenly find 600bn to help out banks?
Ask that your government. The local theory is, they hope Germany will pay most of the bill for them, by letting the program run over the EU budgets. Also the UK does not need that money - they just pay it without concept.
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Old 12-11-2008, 03:09 PM   #48
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Also the UK does not need that money

Hmm, you really haven't been to England lately have you?

Our armed forces in Afghanistan are being killed every day because we don't have to appropriate vehicles with armour to protect them. The weapons they use break constantly. Soldiers have to buy ammo with their own money from the Canadians as ours that we buy cheap from India does not work.

Our hospitals are closing fast, as more & more health services merge together to survive, meaning there are less doctors for everyone. There is only 1 dentist for every 1000 people in England now, and 60% of those dentists are foreign (not that I have anything against foreign dentists), but Britain can't afford to train their own.

The Police forces are under-funded by 40%, and are having to merge together to survive, while crime figures continue to rise

Everything that is nationalised is now being sold off to private businesses to survive - airports, transport, military training. The only thing the government is buying is debt from banks.

Taxes are rising & rising, as the government say they will not be able to afford the 2012 Olympics. Although VAT has just been cut, It will more than double to pay for itself in the next 5 years.

Schools are under-funded & exam results get lower & lower every year. now 60% of students leave school with no qualifications at all.

Unemployment is at an all time high & rising. Inflation is at an all time low & falling. Shops are closing & people are being made redundant faster than ever before.

And that's just now. The future looks even worse. And, the weather here is awful


Sorry to go off topic, my rant about life in modern-day Britain is now ended.


-----Post Added-----


Sorry, forgot to add:

Bills are rising. Bills are now 11% more expensive than 1 year ago, and are set to rise even more. The average shopping bill is now double what it was last year. Wages continue to fall.
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Old 12-11-2008, 03:50 PM   #49
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And you think structural problems like that will be solved by just throwing more money at it?
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Old 12-11-2008, 04:16 PM   #50
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And you think structural problems like that will be solved by just throwing more money at it?
I suppose not.

What is needed is a government that cares more about the country, not just staying in power.
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Old 12-11-2008, 06:18 PM   #51
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Back on topic. What'd everyone think about that line "has warned aerospace executives not to criticize the agency's moon program, sources said."
WTF does that mean? It's not like he can fire Elon Musk, or Boeing's CEO, or Lockheed's.

This line also piqued my interest: "Mike is dead-on convinced that the current approach to the program is the right one"
Perhaps because it's HIS design that HE designed BEFORE becoming NASA administrator, not because it'll work.

"with its NASA-designed Ares I rocket and Orion capsule, as cheaper and safer than existing rockets"
More PR lies. Placing humans on top of a stick of solid fuel is NEVER a good idea no matter how cheap.

Should they scrap IT HECK YEA! Should they scrap the Program NO! They should do what I've said all along, build Orion to original specs, then strap it on top of a Delta IV Heavy and launch it! What I odn't get is how Ares I can even lift Orion in the first place. DIVH has more thrust, and more available Dv than Ares I yet Ares I is being considered for launching "medium" satellites into LEO. Something fishy doesn't add up.
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:55 PM   #52
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If these reports are correct, Griffin is out of line, and he is not long for this world as NASA Admin.

As for Constellation, I stand by my prediction that it will not get canceled completely, but only the LEO capability will be completed, because the US government will not stand for being dependent on Russian or other foreign spacecraft for too long. Apart from NASA, though, few people in government give a rat's behind about the Moon, so Ares V and Altair will be shelved. Especially since Obama wants to blow tons of money on other stuff, and the printing presses at the Fed are straining to keep up.

The only scenario I can envision that would result in the total cancellation of Constellation would be if a private company developed it's own LEO capability with a modest crew complement, something like Dragon-Falcon 9 or equivalent, which would be easy to sell to Congress as an American-made alternative to Constellation, which NASA could then be directed to buy into. But I think there's only an outside chance of that happening.
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:00 PM   #53
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So then, in 2017, when the ISS ends, the purpose of US manned spaceflight will be.......?
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:03 PM   #54
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 So then, in 2017, when the ISS ends, the purpose of US manned spaceflight will be.......?
Asking the Europeans and Russians if they let NASA play with ISS2 even though NASA has no shuttle anymore to help during the assembly?

(In case you are not sure: Yes, this was sarcastic)
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:54 PM   #55
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 So then, in 2017, when the ISS ends, the purpose of US manned spaceflight will be.......?
Most of the doomsday scenarios put the red line of the total FUBAR before that date - so perhaps people will stop caring about the ISS even sooner. 'course, I want not to believe.
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Old 12-12-2008, 12:32 AM   #56
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 So then, in 2017, when the ISS ends, the purpose of US manned spaceflight will be.......?
Same as it is now: To waste money for the purpose of making more people in as many states as possible beholden to the federal government and the members of Congress who bring home the pork. Like pretty much every other government program out there, it waves flags and jobs in front of blue collar people, and scientific data and "societal benefits" in front of BMW-driving liberals, in the hope of gaining as much support as possible for spending as much money as possible and employing as many people as possible. Also, it keeps defense contractor giants like Boeing and Lockheed busy, so they return the favor by lobbying senators in favor of space programs.

Sorry, but you asked...

If I were less cynical I would say that NASA's mission should be to stick to aerospace research and maybe deep-space robotic exploration, and let the grown-ups do manned spaceflight when they feel ready to spend their own money on it.

But alas, I remain cynical.
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Old 12-12-2008, 02:18 AM   #57
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From another article about Griffin's behavior:
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"The transition team is asking questions that are on everyone's mind. The NASA administrator is saying, 'Trust me. You don't need to ask these questions.'
"These aren't the droids you're looking for."
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Old 12-12-2008, 02:24 AM   #58
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 If I were less cynical I would say that NASA's mission should be to stick to aerospace research and maybe deep-space robotic exploration, and let the grown-ups do manned spaceflight when they feel ready to spend their own money on it.
"Grown-ups?"
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Old 12-12-2008, 02:28 AM   #59
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 "Grown-ups?"
I am pretty sure he means private industry is now our only option to have the fortitude to achieve progress in manned space flight now, the way things are developing.
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Old 12-12-2008, 04:40 AM   #60
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I think of government bureaucrats as child-like, in that they expect to get an allowance from dad, who extorts it from the neighbors. Grown-ups have to make a profit, at least as long as they don't think that getting a "government bail-out" is an option. Once that becomes the case, they too become child-like and irresponsible.
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