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Old 09-12-2019, 02:57 AM   #1
Cavalier
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Default Crew mysteriously dies

Hm. I'm flying the 107 along, following the checklist like a good astronaut, but when I get to the LM familiarization at 56 hours, I open the PAMFD to transfer my guys, and lo! They are all dead! I never got any messages, didn't evacuate the atmosphere, or anything strange along the way, so. I go back through various checkpoints, and find they died somewhere between about 7 GET and 22 GET. That's primarily just coasting, so I'm not sure where anything catastrophic could happen. Any thoughts?
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Old 09-12-2019, 06:58 AM   #2
Thymo
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What are your readings in regards to Cabin pressure, temperature, CO2 and the like?
The crew only dies if one of those is off limits.
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Old 09-13-2019, 06:45 PM   #3
Cavalier
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Weirdly, I went back and checked those, and they are all in limit. All things being equal, I suppose, and assume, I have something set incorrectly in the ECS. To quote Tom Hanks, "it has to be the oxygen." In reality, I think that if O2 wasn't flowing the crew would die, but the LiHO would be overwhelmed and CO2 would rise, but I don't know how this is implemented. It doesn't seem possible to change cartridges, so I guess the CO2 is a bit of a work-around, but maybe if O2 wasn't flowing correctly, that might cause death. I'll re-fly the mission and pay closer attention to the way the automatic checklist sets everything. The problem is that, although I've read the G&N manuals for several iterations of the CM, I can't seem to find a manual for the bloody plumbing! I'll update this thread if I figure out the stupid thing I must have done. One thing I wish, though--if a situation occurred where the crew was in danger, MCC's flight surgeon would be burning up the wires, but I never got a message. I don't know the inner workings of MCC, but it would be quite nice if it, or the sim in general, would just casually mention that, "uh, 11? You seem to be about to croak..."
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Old 09-13-2019, 06:53 PM   #4
Cavalier
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Just for luck, I'll include the first scenario I have saved where the crew turned dead.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Apollo 11 T+22_25_Hours_Day2.zip (49.8 KB, 14 views)
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:00 PM   #5
Urwumpe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
 The problem is that, although I've read the G&N manuals for several iterations of the CM, I can't seem to find a manual for the bloody plumbing!

Could be that Guidance & Navigation is not talking about the plumbing.


The subsystem you are looking for is the Environmental Control System.


This here specifies the regular checks:




And here, you can find the details about the plumbing:

https://history.nasa.gov/afj/aoh/aoh-v1-2-07-ecs.pdf

Last edited by Urwumpe; 09-13-2019 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:39 PM   #6
macieksoft
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I have checked the attached scenario.

Seems like you had stowaway Japaneese kamikaze in your CM who turned off suit demand regulators ;-)

Crew was suited and suit circuit was closed (so the crew was sealed from cabin atmosphere). Without functioning regulators and with suit circuit isolated from cabin crew eventually died from lack of oxygen.

It is clearly visible that suit circuit pressure have dropped a lot.

To fix that issue make sure that at least one suit demand regulator is selected or the suit circuit is open (connected to cabin trough suit circuit return valve).
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Old 09-13-2019, 08:26 PM   #7
Cavalier
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Thanks very much! The "plumbing" doc is just the sort of thing I was looking around for. G&N is well covered, being the more interesting information, but anyone who's house has sprung a leak will find the plumbing of immediate interest.

Now to the kamikazi in the cabin... I think that fairly early on I probably set them wrong. Of course, the crew should be well out of their suits at this point. Is there a way to do that BTW? I'm carefully going through the ECS checklist again, and at this point I'm vaguely remembering having some difficulty here. For instance, at the point, "O2 FLOW ind - 0.2-0.45 lb/hr," it is pegged low. At this point, I seem to remember fiddling with a few things, assuming that I missed or just incorrectly set something important, and probably turned the suit flow returns off to see what effect they had, and just forgot to turn them on again. I fear that SIMSUP would have me grounded after that.
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Old 09-13-2019, 09:37 PM   #8
macieksoft
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I think that there is no yet a simulation of a crew in cabin for the CM, it is working in LM anyway.

You can however simulate crew partially suited or so by simply opening the suit circuit return valve.

Generally there are some rules on how to set things up.
For crew sealed in suits you need at least one suit demand regulator working. Procedures also call to disable emergency repress (high flow) regulator.

For crew in cabin (or partially suited) i think there is no need for it (not sure about particular procedures). However procedures require to enable the emergency repress regulator, just in case of puncture (puncture won't happen in sim anyway).
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Old 09-14-2019, 05:52 PM   #9
meik84
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Quote:
For crew in cabin (or partially suited) i think there is no need for it (not sure about particular procedures).
Jupp, the cabin press regs should take care of that. However, the suit demand regs remain on, just in case the crew has to return to the suited condition. When it remains in the right way, you can't forget to set it up in the right way.
Anyway, in reality the astronauts would've noticed a closed suit demand reg very quickly: as they breath away the oxygen, the suit pressure drops below cabin pressure quite quickly, so that the suits collapse ("clingy suit"). The difference between a correctly pressurized suit and a clingy suit is hard to ignore, so they would be on the pink pages of the systems checklist very quickly.
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Old 09-15-2019, 05:52 PM   #10
Cavalier
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So, just to update, I've flown the new mission all the way back to where I discovered the dead crew with no issues. The only difference in settings are the suit returns. I followed the checklist with a closer eye this time, and noticed that the comment beside turning suit power off seems to imply that sets the cabin state, and just to be on the safe side, I returned suit flow to full for each, which is at the end of each DOFF. Pressure is where it is supposed to be and everyone lives, so I conclude that the phenomenally stupid thing I did was, probably during doffing the suits, to turn the return valves off.
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Old 09-15-2019, 09:24 PM   #11
meik84
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Quote:
the comment beside turning suit power off seems to imply that sets the cabin state
Not to my knowledge. SUIT PWR is a mere telecommunications (and telemetry) thing, it powers the astronauts biomed harness and headset. To get out of the suit you had to disconnect the com umbilical from the suit's outer connector and your biomed harness from the suit's inner cabling. To do that while there's still power on the umbilical is not a good thing, so its turned off while doffing the suit and back on again when you had all your cables and electrodes back to where they should be.
When I remember right, the only thing that makes the difference in the sim between "suited" and "unsuited" is the suit circuit return valve. AFAIK the suit flow control valves (300,301,302) don't do anything at all at the moment.
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Old 09-16-2019, 08:56 PM   #12
Cavalier
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It's very hard to know if the crew suited/unsuited state is even taken into account. On the LM, at least you can see their state. It makes me wonder if you could do then entire mission suited (which sort of makes my skin crawl). The cabin flow or full flow probably wouldn't matter as much IRL, as it just seems to control how fast cabin air is recycled through the LiOH, odor filters, and dehumidifying filters. If I read the plumbing doc correctly you would have them on full flow. Certainly turning them off IRL would be bad--in the CMP checklist, it notes that turning them all off while the compressor was running would blow the head gasket after about 1 minute. Oops.
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Old 09-17-2019, 06:57 AM   #13
Thymo
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Right now suited/unsuited state is not taken into account in the CM yet. The only way to simulate this right now is to open the suit circuit return valve.
We do have an overhaul planned for the CM ECS so eventually you'll be able to control suit state there too.
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:45 AM   #14
Cavalier
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That will make things less confusing.
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Old 09-20-2019, 07:22 PM   #15
Cavalier
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Now I'm at the point where we power up and check out the LM. Gak!!! The LM plumbing is more confusing than the CM's. Anyone happen to have or know where to find a doc on the LM ECS?
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