Need help with Space Shuttle Ultra - Page 3 - Orbiter-Forum

Samuel Edwards · 05-25-2017, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItaLiaNKiinG

[/COLOR]Can anybody tell me if this simulation has a more functioning cockpit and if not, what is the realism using it compared to SSU?

Xplane's space shuttle isn't there for the accuracy of the STS, but more of a proving tool for the system on an aerodynamic level. Basically, it's eye candy to prove Xplane can do that kind of simulation.

Gingin · 05-25-2017, 08:34 AM

Quote:

I don't use the CRT MFD module so I don't need to learn that part, just the switches before launch.. I'm fine using the default MFD instrumentsWell actually(.....)I do want it as realistic as possible.. I just mentioned the MFD instruments just in case no one wants to have to learn a whole different set of instruments, I do however want a full working cockpit, which even SSU doesn't have but I'll take my losses..

If you want something as realistic as possible, you have to understand and use the inboard MFD ( CRT) and computer (GPC).
It's the core of the Space Shuttle. For example, you can't neither use generic MFD to fire the OMS in Orbit, nor fire them manually.

Maybe you will enjoy more SSMS 2007, as you will have some visual tips on which switches you have to click on and a full cockpit modelized. However, you will still have to do some research in official documentation to know why you have to click on this particular switch at a particuliar time. It's useless to click just because you are told to click.

ItaLiaNKiinG · 05-29-2017, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gingin

If you want something as realistic as possible, you have to understand and use the inboard MFD ( CRT) and computer (GPC).
It's the core of the Space Shuttle. For example, you can't neither use generic MFD to fire the OMS in Orbit, nor fire them manually.

Maybe you will enjoy more SSMS 2007, as you will have some visual tips on which switches you have to click on and a full cockpit modelized. However, you will still have to do some research in official documentation to know why you have to click on this particular switch at a particuliar time. It's useless to click just because you are told to click.

Well clicking where you are told is the first step, then once you master that it's good to learn why, but the why doesn't really matter to be honest.. as long as you know what to do after you click it, there's only mental benefits to understanding it

Samuel Edwards · 05-29-2017, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItaLiaNKiinG

Well clicking where you are told is the first step, then once you master that it's good to learn why, but the why doesn't really matter to be honest.. as long as you know what to do after you click it, there's only mental benefits to understanding it

I think you should reconsider the validity of this line of reasoning.

The "why" and "what happens" are interconnected, and without understanding the theory behind flicking the switch you're being told to flick, you just might break something. Especially when your eyes wander ever-so-slightly down a few lines. Checklists are written in a sequence because the "why"s of a sequence are important.

It's why we use astronauts instead of monkeys. Monkeys can't troubleshoot.

Thorsten · 05-30-2017, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Well clicking where you are told is the first step, then once you master that it's good to learn why, but the why doesn't really matter to be honest.. as long as you know what to do after you click it, there's only mental benefits to understanding it

That's perhaps true in a simple kind of simulations where things never go wrong, where instruments always show simulated truth and where equipment always works.

It's certainly not true in a realistic simulation.

Simple example - you get an engine warning light. What you should do depends on, well, whether the engine is actually out, or whether the warning light shows wrong. Whether the engine is actually out you can try to determine by looking at the accelerometer - if you know where to find it and what it's supposed to currently show during a nominal ascent.

Such a situation you can not handle correctly without knowing what acceleration you can expect during a nominal launch.

Another example worked out in greater detail: See me working through an electrical bus failure, first trying to determine what the fault is, and then, based on that knowledge, what to do.

In this case, a wrong diagnosis of the situation combined with mindless switch-flicking could leave you without power - or blow a fuel cell.

Well, perhaps you should re-consider whether you really enjoy realistic simulations...

Gingin · 05-30-2017, 01:54 PM

Quote:

as long as you know what to do after you click it, there's only mental benefits to understanding it

Well, it's a weird point of view for someone who is seeking for realism

Mental benefit is as important as clicking for realism.

You are not curious to know why you have to click on this or that switch? How work Electric system in Shuttle or Appolo Spacecraft? What are the differences between the Shuttle APU and Normal plane APU? Why you have to click on dozens of switch to start one APU?

ItaLiaNKiinG · 06-01-2017, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gingin

Well, it's a weird point of view for someone who is seeking for realism

Mental benefit is as important as clicking for realism.

You are not curious to know why you have to click on this or that switch? How work Electric system in Shuttle or Appolo Spacecraft? What are the differences between the Shuttle APU and Normal plane APU? Why you have to click on dozens of switch to start one APU?

I am interested in understanding what each switch means.. but for right now that comes after I learn the steps.. I don't want to have to understand them as I go, I'd rather learn which ones I need to switch first, then after I master that, understand what they actually do.. along with all the other parts of the spacecraft/aircraft.. I'm flying the A-10C Warthog in DCS (Digital Combat Simulator) right now and it's amazing even though I don't know what all the switches do.. lol

Samuel Edwards · 06-01-2017, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItaLiaNKiinG

I am interested in understanding what each switch means.. but for right now that comes after I learn the steps.. I don't want to have to understand them as I go, I'd rather learn which ones I need to switch first, then after I master that, understand what they actually do.. along with all the other parts of the spacecraft/aircraft.. I'm flying the A-10C Warthog in DCS (Digital Combat Simulator) right now and it's amazing even though I don't know what all the switches do.. lol

Yeah, I can understand that.

Switches don't mean a god damned thing when you're in charge of an A-10. It's just sweet, sweet BRRRRRRRRT

**Donamy** · 06-01-2017, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItaLiaNKiinG

I am interested in understanding what each switch means.. but for right now that comes after I learn the steps.. I don't want to have to understand them as I go, I'd rather learn which ones I need to switch first, then after I master that, understand what they actually do.. along with all the other parts of the spacecraft/aircraft.. I'm flying the A-10C Warthog in DCS (Digital Combat Simulator) right now and it's amazing even though I don't know what all the switches do.. lol

You mean memorize, not master.

DaveS · 06-01-2017, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donamy

You mean memorize, not master.

To be fair, it's both. You need to memorize the actual switch locations, but master the actual systems behind them.

**Donamy** · 06-02-2017, 02:09 AM

If you forget one, better to know why the master alarm is sounding, and what to do about it.

ItaLiaNKiinG · 06-02-2017, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donamy

If you forget one, better to know why the master alarm is sounding, and what to do about it.

True.. guess I didn't think about that.. but as I said.. knowing what each switch does and figuring out how to fix a master alarm can come after I understand the procedures, if a master alarm happens to sound, I can just restart the simulator, I have schizophrenia so it's hard to memorize certain things, that's why I need to take it one step at a time

**Donamy** · 06-02-2017, 06:05 PM

If you stick with it, and have patience, you will get it.

ItaLiaNKiinG · 06-04-2017, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donamy

If you stick with it, and have patience, you will get it.

Oh I know, I just wish they would implement a MFD checklist with flashing indicators, NASSP did it and that rocket has a lot of switches also

---------- Post added at 08:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donamy

If you stick with it, and have patience, you will get it.

I'd even pay them to do it lol

**Urwumpe** · 06-05-2017, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel Edwards

Yeah, I can understand that.

Switches don't mean a god damned thing when you're in charge of an A-10. It's just sweet, sweet BRRRRRRRRT

Simple to get there. MASTER ARM and then move the switch with "FUN" taped over its original label either to the position "Death From Above" or "One For All".

And always remember: You need to release the trigger, when it feels best.

---------- Post added at 12:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItaLiaNKiinG

I'd even pay them to do it lol

Money isn't our problem. Time is it. You could pay me a million every year, it would only be a minor improvement, because there is a thing called family for me.

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05-25-2017, 01:40 AM	#31
Samuel Edwards Decidedly Cyclical	Quote: Originally Posted by ItaLiaNKiinG [/COLOR]Can anybody tell me if this simulation has a more functioning cockpit and if not, what is the realism using it compared to SSU? Xplane's space shuttle isn't there for the accuracy of the STS, but more of a proving tool for the system on an aerodynamic level. Basically, it's eye candy to prove Xplane can do that kind of simulation.

05-25-2017, 08:34 AM	#32
Gingin Orbinaut	Quote: I don't use the CRT MFD module so I don't need to learn that part, just the switches before launch.. I'm fine using the default MFD instrumentsWell actually(.....)I do want it as realistic as possible.. I just mentioned the MFD instruments just in case no one wants to have to learn a whole different set of instruments, I do however want a full working cockpit, which even SSU doesn't have but I'll take my losses.. If you want something as realistic as possible, you have to understand and use the inboard MFD ( CRT) and computer (GPC). It's the core of the Space Shuttle. For example, you can't neither use generic MFD to fire the OMS in Orbit, nor fire them manually. Maybe you will enjoy more SSMS 2007, as you will have some visual tips on which switches you have to click on and a full cockpit modelized. However, you will still have to do some research in official documentation to know why you have to click on this particular switch at a particuliar time. It's useless to click just because you are told to click.

05-29-2017, 01:39 AM	#33
ItaLiaNKiinG Orbinaut	Quote: Originally Posted by Gingin If you want something as realistic as possible, you have to understand and use the inboard MFD ( CRT) and computer (GPC). It's the core of the Space Shuttle. For example, you can't neither use generic MFD to fire the OMS in Orbit, nor fire them manually. Maybe you will enjoy more SSMS 2007, as you will have some visual tips on which switches you have to click on and a full cockpit modelized. However, you will still have to do some research in official documentation to know why you have to click on this particular switch at a particuliar time. It's useless to click just because you are told to click. Well clicking where you are told is the first step, then once you master that it's good to learn why, but the why doesn't really matter to be honest.. as long as you know what to do after you click it, there's only mental benefits to understanding it

05-29-2017, 05:30 PM	#34
Samuel Edwards Decidedly Cyclical	Quote: Originally Posted by ItaLiaNKiinG Well clicking where you are told is the first step, then once you master that it's good to learn why, but the why doesn't really matter to be honest.. as long as you know what to do after you click it, there's only mental benefits to understanding it I think you should reconsider the validity of this line of reasoning. The "why" and "what happens" are interconnected, and without understanding the theory behind flicking the switch you're being told to flick, you just might break something. Especially when your eyes wander ever-so-slightly down a few lines. Checklists are written in a sequence because the "why"s of a sequence are important. It's why we use astronauts instead of monkeys. Monkeys can't troubleshoot.

05-30-2017, 05:47 AM	#35
Thorsten Orbinaut	Quote: Well clicking where you are told is the first step, then once you master that it's good to learn why, but the why doesn't really matter to be honest.. as long as you know what to do after you click it, there's only mental benefits to understanding it That's perhaps true in a simple kind of simulations where things never go wrong, where instruments always show simulated truth and where equipment always works. It's certainly not true in a realistic simulation. Simple example - you get an engine warning light. What you should do depends on, well, whether the engine is actually out, or whether the warning light shows wrong. Whether the engine is actually out you can try to determine by looking at the accelerometer - if you know where to find it and what it's supposed to currently show during a nominal ascent. Such a situation you can not handle correctly without knowing what acceleration you can expect during a nominal launch. Another example worked out in greater detail: See me working through an electrical bus failure, first trying to determine what the fault is, and then, based on that knowledge, what to do. In this case, a wrong diagnosis of the situation combined with mindless switch-flicking could leave you without power - or blow a fuel cell. Well, perhaps you should re-consider whether you really enjoy realistic simulations...

05-30-2017, 01:54 PM	#36
Gingin Orbinaut	Quote: as long as you know what to do after you click it, there's only mental benefits to understanding it Well, it's a weird point of view for someone who is seeking for realism Mental benefit is as important as clicking for realism. You are not curious to know why you have to click on this or that switch? How work Electric system in Shuttle or Appolo Spacecraft? What are the differences between the Shuttle APU and Normal plane APU? Why you have to click on dozens of switch to start one APU?

06-01-2017, 09:55 AM	#37
ItaLiaNKiinG Orbinaut	Quote: Originally Posted by Gingin Well, it's a weird point of view for someone who is seeking for realism Mental benefit is as important as clicking for realism. You are not curious to know why you have to click on this or that switch? How work Electric system in Shuttle or Appolo Spacecraft? What are the differences between the Shuttle APU and Normal plane APU? Why you have to click on dozens of switch to start one APU? I am interested in understanding what each switch means.. but for right now that comes after I learn the steps.. I don't want to have to understand them as I go, I'd rather learn which ones I need to switch first, then after I master that, understand what they actually do.. along with all the other parts of the spacecraft/aircraft.. I'm flying the A-10C Warthog in DCS (Digital Combat Simulator) right now and it's amazing even though I don't know what all the switches do.. lol

06-01-2017, 02:19 PM	#38
Samuel Edwards Decidedly Cyclical	Quote: Originally Posted by ItaLiaNKiinG I am interested in understanding what each switch means.. but for right now that comes after I learn the steps.. I don't want to have to understand them as I go, I'd rather learn which ones I need to switch first, then after I master that, understand what they actually do.. along with all the other parts of the spacecraft/aircraft.. I'm flying the A-10C Warthog in DCS (Digital Combat Simulator) right now and it's amazing even though I don't know what all the switches do.. lol Yeah, I can understand that. Switches don't mean a god damned thing when you're in charge of an A-10. It's just sweet, sweet BRRRRRRRRT

06-01-2017, 04:01 PM	#39
Donamy Beta Tester	Quote: Originally Posted by ItaLiaNKiinG I am interested in understanding what each switch means.. but for right now that comes after I learn the steps.. I don't want to have to understand them as I go, I'd rather learn which ones I need to switch first, then after I master that, understand what they actually do.. along with all the other parts of the spacecraft/aircraft.. I'm flying the A-10C Warthog in DCS (Digital Combat Simulator) right now and it's amazing even though I don't know what all the switches do.. lol You mean memorize, not master.

06-01-2017, 11:34 PM	#40
DaveS Addon Developer	Quote: Originally Posted by Donamy You mean memorize, not master. To be fair, it's both. You need to memorize the actual switch locations, but master the actual systems behind them.

06-02-2017, 02:09 AM	#41
Donamy Beta Tester	If you forget one, better to know why the master alarm is sounding, and what to do about it.

06-02-2017, 04:21 PM	#42
ItaLiaNKiinG Orbinaut	Quote: Originally Posted by Donamy If you forget one, better to know why the master alarm is sounding, and what to do about it. True.. guess I didn't think about that.. but as I said.. knowing what each switch does and figuring out how to fix a master alarm can come after I understand the procedures, if a master alarm happens to sound, I can just restart the simulator, I have schizophrenia so it's hard to memorize certain things, that's why I need to take it one step at a time

06-02-2017, 06:05 PM	#43
Donamy Beta Tester	If you stick with it, and have patience, you will get it.

06-04-2017, 08:25 PM	#44
ItaLiaNKiinG Orbinaut	Quote: Originally Posted by Donamy If you stick with it, and have patience, you will get it. Oh I know, I just wish they would implement a MFD checklist with flashing indicators, NASSP did it and that rocket has a lot of switches also ---------- Post added at 08:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 PM ---------- Quote: Originally Posted by Donamy If you stick with it, and have patience, you will get it. I'd even pay them to do it lol

06-05-2017, 10:11 AM	#45
Urwumpe Certain Super User	Quote: Originally Posted by Samuel Edwards Yeah, I can understand that. Switches don't mean a god damned thing when you're in charge of an A-10. It's just sweet, sweet BRRRRRRRRT Simple to get there. MASTER ARM and then move the switch with "FUN" taped over its original label either to the position "Death From Above" or "One For All". And always remember: You need to release the trigger, when it feels best. ---------- Post added at 12:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 PM ---------- Quote: Originally Posted by ItaLiaNKiinG I'd even pay them to do it lol Money isn't our problem. Time is it. You could pay me a million every year, it would only be a minor improvement, because there is a thing called family for me.