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Old 01-04-2016, 11:42 AM   #196
Face
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Good news for everybody hoping on genericvessel to replace SC3: no need to do so anymore, vinka returned to Dan's place and announced a brand new SC4 .

In light of the license problems and the obvious unnecessary competition a parallel framework would create, I'd say we can safely announce genericvessel to be dead now.

I'd like to thank every contributor to the project for the valuable input and hope the ideas and concepts will find a new home in SC4 (or 5,6,7...).

Happy orbiting!
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Old 01-04-2016, 03:58 PM   #197
Artlav
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Well, it's not like we just flush it down the toilet. The project is still useful, i.e. as an education example on how an add-on like sc3/4 works. Also, it's a compact vessel class that uses most of the Orbiter's features at once - plenty of example material.

Might be a good idea to cut it up into a set of vessel templates, for use as starting points for the devs.
That what i usually do - when i make code with some hint of generality, i usually save a cleaned version of it into a library of templates, so next time i need to do something similar i can hit the ground running instead of wasting time (and letting whatever idea i had go stale) setting up and working out the low level trivia.
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Old 01-04-2016, 04:29 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artlav View Post
 Well, it's not like we just flush it down the toilet. The project is still useful, i.e. as an education example on how an add-on like sc3/4 works. Also, it's a compact vessel class that uses most of the Orbiter's features at once - plenty of example material.
Given the huge data-holding record structure that is used to interact with the Pascal parser, I don't think many will use this as a starting point. Too much clutter.

However, I've emailed Vinka with a request for the source code with the rational to implement some of the better points demonstrated here: multi-instance, multi-arm, beta compatibility. Let's see if he answers this time. Perhaps we can migrate some of it to his framework, so it will not feel like flushing it down the toilet .

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 Might be a good idea to cut it up into a set of vessel templates, for use as starting points for the devs.
Sure. Feel free to do so. However, it would have to be GPL if it is derived from the project's code, and we know that this is not well received here.

Your work might well end up just like so many of your other projects: well thought out, nicely demonstrating potential ground-breaking new approaches, but eventually being neglected and unmaintained for years up to a point where you'll practically have to abandon them.
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Old 01-04-2016, 06:45 PM   #199
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I see some things that SC4 doesn't have, like unlimited attachments and multiple Robotics arms.
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Old 01-04-2016, 06:57 PM   #200
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 I see some things that SC4 doesn't have, like unlimited attachments and multiple Robotics arms.
That's why I've written him to take him up on his offer of the source code.
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Old 01-04-2016, 07:00 PM   #201
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I knew 2016 was going to be a good year.
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Old 01-04-2016, 07:07 PM   #202
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Gentlemen...
I do hope that GV will still go on. I can say that it most certainly will live on in my hangar. IMHO a lot of things has been gained for the community with the birth of GV and has also given rise to ideas (as well as some heated debate:-))
There are also some bugs in the SC3 code that has been eradicated with GV. So for me no point in leaving GV unless something better emerges - And having read the new feature list of SC4 I still think that GV is way ahead of even SC4 (perhaps some minor details apart). And then there is the whole Open source/GPL thing. Should we go back to "closed coding" where no one can pick up from others when they leave the community...(I'm almost attempted to say H... no - but good manners forbid this :-D)
So...I'm glad that you emailed Vinka and hope that he will reply positively to your suggestion. Else I have a lingering fear that are walking backwards instead of progressing.
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Old 01-04-2016, 07:55 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Michael_Chr View Post
 Gentlemen...
I do hope that GV will still go on. I can say that it most certainly will live on in my hangar. IMHO a lot of things has been gained for the community with the birth of GV and has also given rise to ideas (as well as some heated debate:-))
There are also some bugs in the SC3 code that has been eradicated with GV. So for me no point in leaving GV unless something better emerges - And having read the new feature list of SC4 I still think that GV is way ahead of even SC4 (perhaps some minor details apart).
For sure there won't be further work on it from my side. Orbiter is a hostile environment for GPL. Period.
You also have to realize that genericvessel was far from finished, even in its last version. Many things of SC3 were not present. If you proceed developing it, you have to play catch-up, because now you'd have to change the genericvessel features to mimic the changes in SC4, too. Otherwise you'd create a parallel framework, which would split the user-base.

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 And then there is the whole Open source/GPL thing. Should we go back to "closed coding" where no one can pick up from others when they leave the community...(I'm almost attempted to say H... no - but good manners forbid this :-D)
We already ARE back to closed coding. After the GPL discussion, you would be a fool to open your code. Either you give it up completely and don't care if people steal from you, or you risk your work being called illegal by trolls here. Better keep it as restricted as possible, less BS that way.

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 So...I'm glad that you emailed Vinka and hope that he will reply positively to your suggestion. Else I have a lingering fear that are walking backwards instead of progressing.
He already replied, but not exactly positive. He wants some time to think about it. I think it is well worth the wait, after all we've waited almost a decade already .

And for walking backwards: hey, I've tried my share. Now it is high time others pick up the flame and storm the wind-mills .
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Old 01-04-2016, 08:12 PM   #204
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Well...what to say???
Personally I'm very glad for all the effort that you have put into GV. At least you should be credited for the all the hard work and all the rights thoughts that you put into this. And we will have to see what the future brings.
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Old 01-04-2016, 08:17 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Face View Post
 We already ARE back to closed coding. After the GPL discussion, you would be a fool to open your code. Either you give it up completely and don't care if people steal from you, or you risk your work being called illegal by trolls here. Better keep it as restricted as possible, less BS that way.


Face, eat a Snickers (Disclaimer: unless you are allergic). You are not you, when you are hungry.
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Old 01-04-2016, 08:26 PM   #206
Artlav
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Originally Posted by Face View Post
 After the GPL discussion, you would be a fool to open your code.
Huh.
Can someone give me a TL;DR on that discussion?
(Preferably longer than the above phrase.)
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Old 01-04-2016, 08:39 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Artlav View Post
 Huh.
Can someone give me a TL;DR on that discussion?
(Preferably longer than the above phrase.)
Someone that I will not say it was me =P stated that GPL can be a problem to the end user when distributed mixed with artifacts that are licensed under a GPL incompatible terms in the same package. The GPL became void and null in such situations, and if another licensing (double license) is not applied, the end user will incur in copyright violation by the lack of licensing terms, when the "all rights reserved" is automatically applied.

In USA at least this is not a problem (private use, as it was said). However, USA is not the whole world, and besides being improbable that such would happen, the fact is that copyright infringement (being the infringer aware or not) can be a harsh legal issue on some countries (as Australia).

The problem I see is that the hammer will (potentially) fall on the head of the weaker side: the end user, that don't understand licensing. Neither the distributor neither the original author are risking legal trouble - just the end user.

The bottom line is that, in my not so humble opinion, GPL is OK to be used as long everying else being distributed together is also GPL. Anything else needs further considerations.

[edit]

PLEASE by all means, answer the guy with your view, but don't promote this thread hijacking with arguments. If you feel the need to further discuss the matter, please start a new one on the Basement.

Last edited by Lisias; 01-05-2016 at 06:46 AM. Reason: edit announce
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Old 01-04-2016, 08:46 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urwumpe View Post
 

Face, eat a Snickers (Disclaimer: unless you are allergic). You are not you, when you are hungry.
ARRRRRRGHRHRRR *bites in a pillow looking like a gremlin*

Hey, what do you want, I'm not coming up with it, I'm just responding to people bringing it up .
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Old 01-04-2016, 08:49 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artlav View Post
 Huh.
Can someone give me a TL;DR on that discussion?
(Preferably longer than the above phrase.)
I don't recommend it. It is a journey into the heart of darkness.

In short summary: Somebody without any legal qualification challenged the validity of the GPL for Orbiter add-ons, upsetting a few GPL supporters and making many open-source developers roll their eyes. I have lost track of the common thread somewhere in the discussion, somehow there appeared the assumption that a hypothetical invalidity of the GPL results in a default of the source-code license into public domain by publication.

In essence, the discussion ended with the agreement that nothing is wrong with the business as usual. But for Face there must have been a mortal insult contained somewhere there, as he goes Cato the Elder in any opportunity here.
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Old 01-04-2016, 09:02 PM   #210
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I hope this doesn't scare Vinka away !!!
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