Project Sigma rocket - Page 2 - Orbiter-Forum

T.Neo · 08-18-2011, 05:49 PM

Quote:

That Normal Mapping thing is completely awesome, especially for isolation layers :

Something about that image makes the fabric look too dark... almost as if dirt had been smeared in the folds, in the shadowed areas...

N_Molson · 08-18-2011, 06:17 PM

I scaled down the texture on the front side. Of course, "seams" appear, but there would be some in reality too.

---------- Post added at 06:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 PM ----------

Quote:

Something about that image makes the fabric look too dark... almost as if dirt had been smeared in the folds, in the shadowed areas...

Maybe the texture... Difficult to find one that looks like the pure-white cloth used for space application.

---------- Post added at 06:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:02 PM ----------

Added some luminosity to the texture, removes some of that "lunar dust".

**orb** · 08-18-2011, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T.Neo

Something about that image makes the fabric look too dark... almost as if dirt had been smeared in the folds, in the shadowed areas...

That's because the "diffuse" texture isn't pure diffuse map. It already contains shadows which are then added with those created by normal map, but if you remove shadows from the texture, it will look completely flat when used with the in-line graphics Orbiter, or when normal mapping is turned off.

T.Neo · 08-18-2011, 06:41 PM

Maybe the 'depth' of the bump map could be reduced? It isn't like the folds in that sort of fabric are all that deep in reality, are they?

Luminosity helps, but will also make the ship glow when in shadow... I think that will make it look odd.

There could be other reasons though: in reality, light bounces from sunlight portions of the ship, to shadowed portions of the ship, and you also have Earthshine as well. Of course, you get to the point with all these aspects, that you would probably need to run Orbiter on a Weta render farm.

N_Molson · 08-18-2011, 06:46 PM

Yes, I'm playing around with those settings. What is hard to appreciate, is that there is no air to diffuse the light in space, so it's a little difficult to imagine. Watching ATV pics to try to get an idea...

In fact, the folds are quite deep :

I think that I'm on the right scale on my last pics.

But yes, the white is more white and even slightly tinted in blue in the shadows (the Earthlight, I guess). Bah, we'll get Celestial Bodies multilights one day...

Or maybe the Sun light should just be more powerful ?

T.Neo · 08-18-2011, 07:06 PM

Still does not look the same, I guess a lot of it is light bouncing and Earthshine. But the fabric definitely does seem lighter and more 'reflective'.

It is interesting to note that the fabric to the left side, which are partially in shadow, has very obvious folds whereas fabric to the right which is getting more direct sunlight, has less obvious folds. The angle of the Sun isn't obvious in your screenshots, but I think being too obvious in direct sunlight could be a reason for the 'uncanny' resemblance of the fabric.

This video of Saturn V staging shows pretty clearly how a sunlit surface can illuminate a shadowed surface (and toward the end of the video, how earthshine can illuminate something). This is with that sort of green primer mind you, not highly reflective thermal blankets.

Saturn S-II stage separation

N_Molson · 08-18-2011, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Still does not look the same, I guess a lot of it is light bouncing and Earthshine. But the fabric definitely does seem lighter and more 'reflective'.

Yes, the idea would be some kind of specularity that doesn't shine... Don't see how to do that with Anim8tor parameters, though...

---------- Post added at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------

Because, with a lot of specularity, you appreciate better the direction of the light, but it just looks like a cylinder of plastic. Better without it, I find.

The lightning model is probably too simple. Even renders like this one don't really manage to get the effect :

T.Neo · 08-18-2011, 08:09 PM

Specularity should be reserved for things that are specular- like metal or smooth painted surfaces. Not fabric like this, I don't think...

N_Molson · 08-19-2011, 04:15 PM

Well, can't do a lot better right now (the nozzle part needs work).

---------- Post added 08-19-11 at 04:15 PM ---------- Previous post was 08-18-11 at 08:47 PM ----------

Normal maps really add realism to textures, even at very low levels (the orange texture)

N_Molson · 08-23-2011, 03:09 PM

At least, I managed to code an animation for the deployement of 1 solar panels array.

---------- Post added at 04:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 PM ----------

Ok, the 4 arrays are deployed !

I'd like to make them able to track the Sun, by rotating on their axis... I'll see if I can do that.

---------- Post added 08-23-11 at 03:09 PM ---------- Previous post was 08-22-11 at 04:10 PM ----------

The antenna animation is done, and now everything deploys in sequence :

1) Antenna
2) Top solar array
3) Bottom solar array
4) Left solar array
5) Right solar array

The whole sequence lasts more than 5 minutes, which should be realistic enough. It is initiated with a delay when the vehicle is no longer attached.

Wishbone · 08-23-2011, 07:15 PM

Shouldn't opposing arrays be unfurled simultaneously, to avoid extra torques?

N_Molson · 08-23-2011, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Shouldn't opposing arrays be unfurled simultaneously, to avoid extra torques?

I think that the ATV does it that way, one by one. Less stress on the batteries I guess. Anyway, given the very slow motion and the powerful RCS, a "killrot" would deal with that easily.

Edit : Sorry, it seems you are right ! Will fix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcBXEZjHLh0&feature=relmfu

**kuddel** · 08-23-2011, 09:51 PM

Hi N_Molson,

I'm not sure if you should take those "animations" as reference.
I had the same question with ATV-2 a while ago here:

http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthr...8&postcount=70

and I'm not sure what sources Urwumpe had back than, but he might give you reliably sources on this topic.

/Kuddel

N_Molson · 08-26-2011, 01:45 AM

Well, for now the solar panels deploy by pairs. Technically, that should be possible, that's a big spacecraft and the batteries will be rather of an heavy-duty type.

ky · 08-26-2011, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N_Molson

Well, for now the solar panels deploy by pairs. Technically, that should be possible, that's a big spacecraft and the batteries will be rather of an heavy-duty type.

Awesome project you have going.Keep up the great work!

08-18-2011, 06:46 PM	#20
N_Molson Addon Developer	Yes, I'm playing around with those settings. What is hard to appreciate, is that there is no air to diffuse the light in space, so it's a little difficult to imagine. Watching ATV pics to try to get an idea... In fact, the folds are quite deep : I think that I'm on the right scale on my last pics. But yes, the white is more white and even slightly tinted in blue in the shadows (the Earthlight, I guess). Bah, we'll get Celestial Bodies multilights one day... Or maybe the Sun light should just be more powerful ? Last edited by N_Molson; 08-18-2011 at 06:58 PM.

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08-18-2011, 05:49 PM	#16
T.Neo SA 2010 Soccermaniac	Quote: That Normal Mapping thing is completely awesome, especially for isolation layers : Something about that image makes the fabric look too dark... almost as if dirt had been smeared in the folds, in the shadowed areas...

08-18-2011, 06:17 PM	#17
N_Molson Addon Developer	I scaled down the texture on the front side. Of course, "seams" appear, but there would be some in reality too. ---------- Post added at 06:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 PM ---------- Quote: Something about that image makes the fabric look too dark... almost as if dirt had been smeared in the folds, in the shadowed areas... Maybe the texture... Difficult to find one that looks like the pure-white cloth used for space application. ---------- Post added at 06:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:02 PM ---------- Added some luminosity to the texture, removes some of that "lunar dust".

08-18-2011, 06:35 PM	#18
orb O-F Administrator	Quote: Originally Posted by T.Neo Something about that image makes the fabric look too dark... almost as if dirt had been smeared in the folds, in the shadowed areas... That's because the "diffuse" texture isn't pure diffuse map. It already contains shadows which are then added with those created by normal map, but if you remove shadows from the texture, it will look completely flat when used with the in-line graphics Orbiter, or when normal mapping is turned off.

08-18-2011, 06:41 PM	#19
T.Neo SA 2010 Soccermaniac	Maybe the 'depth' of the bump map could be reduced? It isn't like the folds in that sort of fabric are all that deep in reality, are they? Luminosity helps, but will also make the ship glow when in shadow... I think that will make it look odd. There could be other reasons though: in reality, light bounces from sunlight portions of the ship, to shadowed portions of the ship, and you also have Earthshine as well. Of course, you get to the point with all these aspects, that you would probably need to run Orbiter on a Weta render farm.

08-18-2011, 07:24 PM	#22
N_Molson Addon Developer	Quote: Still does not look the same, I guess a lot of it is light bouncing and Earthshine. But the fabric definitely does seem lighter and more 'reflective'. Yes, the idea would be some kind of specularity that doesn't shine... Don't see how to do that with Anim8tor parameters, though... ---------- Post added at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ---------- Because, with a lot of specularity, you appreciate better the direction of the light, but it just looks like a cylinder of plastic. Better without it, I find. The lightning model is probably too simple. Even renders like this one don't really manage to get the effect :

08-18-2011, 08:09 PM	#23
T.Neo SA 2010 Soccermaniac	Specularity should be reserved for things that are specular- like metal or smooth painted surfaces. Not fabric like this, I don't think...

08-19-2011, 04:15 PM	#24
N_Molson Addon Developer	Well, can't do a lot better right now (the nozzle part needs work). ---------- Post added 08-19-11 at 04:15 PM ---------- Previous post was 08-18-11 at 08:47 PM ---------- Normal maps really add realism to textures, even at very low levels (the orange texture)

08-23-2011, 03:09 PM	#25
N_Molson Addon Developer	At least, I managed to code an animation for the deployement of 1 solar panels array. ---------- Post added at 04:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 PM ---------- Ok, the 4 arrays are deployed ! I'd like to make them able to track the Sun, by rotating on their axis... I'll see if I can do that. ---------- Post added 08-23-11 at 03:09 PM ---------- Previous post was 08-22-11 at 04:10 PM ---------- The antenna animation is done, and now everything deploys in sequence : 1) Antenna 2) Top solar array 3) Bottom solar array 4) Left solar array 5) Right solar array The whole sequence lasts more than 5 minutes, which should be realistic enough. It is initiated with a delay when the vehicle is no longer attached.

08-23-2011, 07:15 PM	#26
Wishbone Clueless developer	Shouldn't opposing arrays be unfurled simultaneously, to avoid extra torques?

08-23-2011, 09:51 PM	#28
kuddel Donator	Hi N_Molson, I'm not sure if you should take those "animations" as reference. I had the same question with ATV-2 a while ago here: http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthr...8&postcount=70 and I'm not sure what sources Urwumpe had back than, but he might give you reliably sources on this topic. /Kuddel

08-26-2011, 01:45 AM	#29
N_Molson Addon Developer	Well, for now the solar panels deploy by pairs. Technically, that should be possible, that's a big spacecraft and the batteries will be rather of an heavy-duty type.

08-26-2011, 01:57 AM	#30
ky Director of Manned Spaceflight	Quote: Originally Posted by N_Molson Well, for now the solar panels deploy by pairs. Technically, that should be possible, that's a big spacecraft and the batteries will be rather of an heavy-duty type. Awesome project you have going.Keep up the great work!