News 'Ten shot dead' at Batman film premiere in Denver - Page 4 - Orbiter-Forum

fort · 07-20-2012, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artlav

Every day more people die in car crashes in one state than was killed in that theatre. Why the special attention?

One always can think that one will be in a position to to caution itself against a car accident.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screamer7

I think the root to all this evil deeds is the violent environment we are living these days.
There are a lot of movies, PC game etc. with violence in it's content...

And the question remains to knowledge if it is the hen that did the egg or the egg the hen.

Codz · 07-20-2012, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screamer7

I think the root to all this evil deeds is the violent environment we are living these days.
There are a lot of movies, PC game etc. with violence in it's content.
Some people interpreted it different than other people.
Some people grow up in a violent environment, and that have a physiological effect on people.

I completely disagree. Anyone who would actually turn violent from a movie or game or book was already unstable. I've watched many violent movies and played many violent games and I'm still thoroughly disgusted with the idea of killing, justified or not. Games and movies are just an easy excuse to hype up and therefore ignore the real, far more complex issue.

**Donamy** · 07-20-2012, 09:52 PM

Even though he had armor, if enough people in the theatre were armed, they could have maybe slowed him down, or wounded him, until someone could have got up the nerve to rush him. The hi-jacked plane over Penn. shows that some people will risk their own lives to try and save others.

**Urwumpe** · 07-20-2012, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donamy

Even though he had armor, if enough people in the theatre were armed, they could have maybe slowed him down, or wounded him, until someone could have got up the nerve to rush him. The hi-jacked plane over Penn. shows that some people will risk their own lives to try and save others.

Yes, but better not have 50 armed one-man teams trying to control a situation. That means 48 guns and a spree killer against you.

Tommy · 07-20-2012, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragtag

I don't know about Colorado but here in MA I'm pretty sure it's illegal to have body armor.

It is not illegal to own body armor. Many states regulate the sales (only to law enforcement or authorized private security, etc) and have restrictions on wearing body armor.

Quote:

This whack job had this well planned and even may have had an accomplish because it's a little unclear how he was able to open a locked steal door with no outside handle. A door the opens inward which would be very hard to breach without some heavy equipment.

He entered the theatre in the normal fashion - by purchasing a ticket. It's unclear if he was wearing the armor at that time - many people were "in costume" so nobody paid attention. He opened an "emergency" exit and propped it open so he could get his guns, and returned to the auditorium and started shooting. Many theatres don't have alarms on these secondary exits because people use them to leave the theatre - most dead directly outside so you can bypass the crowded lobby. I suspect that will change now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quick_Nick

Certainly investigate how he obtained his supplies. But a simple gun ban isn't going to solve anything. He had riot gear, tear gas, body armor, very likely illegal weapons including an automatic rifle, and likely significant bombs/explosives. He could have just set off bombs instead, or any number of things. As mentioned in an earlier post, gun-free areas are specifically targeted. Armed civilians would have been no real help in this unusual situation, but had he at least not been wearing armor, it could have helped.

The guns and armor were likely legally obtained (the AR-15 is semi-auto, as were the Glocks and shotgun). I'm not sure if the AR-15 had been illegally converted to full auto, but the witness statements in the paper don't sound as if it had been. The "tear gas" was illegal, as are the boobytraps in his apartment - but it's not hard to make that kind of thing at home from common household chemicals etc. The know-how to make them is easy to come by on the internet - you can even find the US Army's Improvised Munitions Handbook online if you look hard enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quick_Nick

What's the biggest disadvantage of having a gun that you aren't obligated to use as you crawl in fear and know the crazed gunman is armed and armored? A man in armor isn't a reason not to have a gun. It's just a situation where your tool isn't useful. Hopefully you've been trained to use it wisely and you don't try it until you have a very good chance or if he's coming for you.

I agree, and even if the guy is wearing armor there's no reason not to try shooting in a case like this. You won't be escalating - it's already a slaughter. You might get a round through one of the gaps in the armor (the face isn't protected - nor are hands, arms, and feet - and there are gaps in the side of the vest). Even if you don't penetrate the armor, the blunt force trauma alone can stop a person in a non-rigid armor (no idea what armor the guy was wearing) or at least slow him down giving more people a chance to escape. As long as you are careful with your shot placement (not hitting innocents) there isn't a real solid reason to to try to defend yourself against this kind of attack - provided you are close enough to place the shots where you need them.

One skilled marksman could have saved many of these people.

**Quick_Nick** · 07-20-2012, 10:24 PM

Still better than Slate (who inadvertently confirmed some of this):
http://www.theonion.com/articles/sad...ootings,28857/

---------- Post added at 05:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 PM ----------

Regarding the armor/clothing:
"The suspect was found in possession of a helmet, a gas mask, a tactical vest, throat and groin protectors and black tactical gloves, authorities said."

Keatah · 07-20-2012, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

I'm sure they'll come up with some pathetic excusse about his rough upbringing or childhood or how he was bullied in school as an excuse for his actions.
Defense Lawyers make me sick....

Sad thing is that aspects like you just said *are* involved in this. But, look, a rough upbringing (full of discipline and rules and expectations) does not generally result in this.

It's the meek and neglected and wussy parents making a wuss junior, these are where the disturbed ones come from. Seen it in my hometown for sure. The frustration at not being able to be heard makes the perpetrator nuts.

Screamer7 · 07-20-2012, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Codz

I completely disagree. Anyone who would actually turn violent from a movie or game or book was already unstable. I've watched many violent movies and played many violent games and I'm still thoroughly disgusted with the idea of killing, justified or not. Games and movies are just an easy excuse to hype up and therefore ignore the real, far more complex issue.

And that is precisely the point I want to make.
An already unstable person can get his motives by violent events like movies.
To me as a sane person violence in movies is just a movie.
Unstable persons see that violence in a totally different way.
I know it because I am watching people.
Some are more influential than others.
And to get them on the right track can sometimes be very difficult.
He believes in what he think.
Body armor, like in the movies.
Lethal weapons, like in the movies.
A house full of explosives, like in the movies.
This guy went totally of track.

**Quick_Nick** · 07-20-2012, 10:51 PM

Weapons, armor, and psychopaths exist in real life first.

Screamer7 · 07-20-2012, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quick_Nick

Weapons, armor, and psychopaths exist in real life first.

That is true.

Keatah · 07-20-2012, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screamer7

And to get them on the right track can sometimes be very difficult.

To get them on the right track.. That usually begins at home in the early years, does it not?

Well, I blew up all sorts of stuff as a kid. You know high school chemistry experiments and mom's under-the-sink chemical supply house. But we never hurt so much as a bug. Maybe an ant walked into the spilled Drano from time to time though.

In the 60's and 70's there wasn't much in the way of video games. But then soon enough the likes of atari and quake and doom came along.. But we all knew the difference between games/movie violence and real-life destruction.

Apparently that's not the case here. A confused blur of real & virtual realities. Either way, the psychiatrists are gonna be all over this one.

Screamer7 · 07-20-2012, 11:18 PM

Yes Keetah, it begin in the early years.
My parents brought me up well, my buttocks know about that!!!!
And that is another thing....
Your parents.
They play a big role in a youngster's life.

**Urwumpe** · 07-20-2012, 11:18 PM

That is nonsense, some of the biggest spree killings happened WAY before the video games. It is likely in the opposite direction. Possible spree killers feel attracted by violence.

Screamer7 · 07-20-2012, 11:35 PM

I thought so....
Aurora - New York City's police commissioner says the gunman in the Colorado cinema rampage had painted his hair red and called himself the Joker - the villain from the Batman movies.
http://www.news24.com/World/News/Cin...Joker-20120720

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment...er-could-have/

**Cras** · 07-21-2012, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwumpe

Doesn't it disturb you, that we know the name of the killer, but not the names of the victims?

I have found the coverage of this event by the news outlets to be lacking, to say the least.

07-20-2012, 09:42 PM	#46
fort Orbinaut	Quote: Originally Posted by Artlav Every day more people die in car crashes in one state than was killed in that theatre. Why the special attention? One always can think that one will be in a position to to caution itself against a car accident. Quote: Originally Posted by Screamer7 I think the root to all this evil deeds is the violent environment we are living these days. There are a lot of movies, PC game etc. with violence in it's content... And the question remains to knowledge if it is the hen that did the egg or the egg the hen. Last edited by fort; 07-20-2012 at 09:48 PM.

07-20-2012, 10:40 PM	#53
Screamer7 Orbinaut	Quote: Originally Posted by Codz I completely disagree. Anyone who would actually turn violent from a movie or game or book was already unstable. I've watched many violent movies and played many violent games and I'm still thoroughly disgusted with the idea of killing, justified or not. Games and movies are just an easy excuse to hype up and therefore ignore the real, far more complex issue. And that is precisely the point I want to make. An already unstable person can get his motives by violent events like movies. To me as a sane person violence in movies is just a movie. Unstable persons see that violence in a totally different way. I know it because I am watching people. Some are more influential than others. And to get them on the right track can sometimes be very difficult. He believes in what he think. Body armor, like in the movies. Lethal weapons, like in the movies. A house full of explosives, like in the movies. This guy went totally of track. Last edited by Screamer7; 07-20-2012 at 10:47 PM.

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07-20-2012, 09:45 PM	#47
Codz Orion/SLS supporter.	Quote: Originally Posted by Screamer7 I think the root to all this evil deeds is the violent environment we are living these days. There are a lot of movies, PC game etc. with violence in it's content. Some people interpreted it different than other people. Some people grow up in a violent environment, and that have a physiological effect on people. I completely disagree. Anyone who would actually turn violent from a movie or game or book was already unstable. I've watched many violent movies and played many violent games and I'm still thoroughly disgusted with the idea of killing, justified or not. Games and movies are just an easy excuse to hype up and therefore ignore the real, far more complex issue.

07-20-2012, 09:52 PM	#48
Donamy Beta Tester	Even though he had armor, if enough people in the theatre were armed, they could have maybe slowed him down, or wounded him, until someone could have got up the nerve to rush him. The hi-jacked plane over Penn. shows that some people will risk their own lives to try and save others.

07-20-2012, 09:56 PM	#49
Urwumpe Donator	Quote: Originally Posted by Donamy Even though he had armor, if enough people in the theatre were armed, they could have maybe slowed him down, or wounded him, until someone could have got up the nerve to rush him. The hi-jacked plane over Penn. shows that some people will risk their own lives to try and save others. Yes, but better not have 50 armed one-man teams trying to control a situation. That means 48 guns and a spree killer against you.

07-20-2012, 10:01 PM	#50
Tommy Orbinaut	Quote: Originally Posted by Ragtag I don't know about Colorado but here in MA I'm pretty sure it's illegal to have body armor. It is not illegal to own body armor. Many states regulate the sales (only to law enforcement or authorized private security, etc) and have restrictions on wearing body armor. Quote: This whack job had this well planned and even may have had an accomplish because it's a little unclear how he was able to open a locked steal door with no outside handle. A door the opens inward which would be very hard to breach without some heavy equipment. He entered the theatre in the normal fashion - by purchasing a ticket. It's unclear if he was wearing the armor at that time - many people were "in costume" so nobody paid attention. He opened an "emergency" exit and propped it open so he could get his guns, and returned to the auditorium and started shooting. Many theatres don't have alarms on these secondary exits because people use them to leave the theatre - most dead directly outside so you can bypass the crowded lobby. I suspect that will change now. Quote: Originally Posted by Quick_Nick Certainly investigate how he obtained his supplies. But a simple gun ban isn't going to solve anything. He had riot gear, tear gas, body armor, very likely illegal weapons including an automatic rifle, and likely significant bombs/explosives. He could have just set off bombs instead, or any number of things. As mentioned in an earlier post, gun-free areas are specifically targeted. Armed civilians would have been no real help in this unusual situation, but had he at least not been wearing armor, it could have helped. The guns and armor were likely legally obtained (the AR-15 is semi-auto, as were the Glocks and shotgun). I'm not sure if the AR-15 had been illegally converted to full auto, but the witness statements in the paper don't sound as if it had been. The "tear gas" was illegal, as are the boobytraps in his apartment - but it's not hard to make that kind of thing at home from common household chemicals etc. The know-how to make them is easy to come by on the internet - you can even find the US Army's Improvised Munitions Handbook online if you look hard enough. Quote: Originally Posted by Quick_Nick What's the biggest disadvantage of having a gun that you aren't obligated to use as you crawl in fear and know the crazed gunman is armed and armored? A man in armor isn't a reason not to have a gun. It's just a situation where your tool isn't useful. Hopefully you've been trained to use it wisely and you don't try it until you have a very good chance or if he's coming for you. I agree, and even if the guy is wearing armor there's no reason not to try shooting in a case like this. You won't be escalating - it's already a slaughter. You might get a round through one of the gaps in the armor (the face isn't protected - nor are hands, arms, and feet - and there are gaps in the side of the vest). Even if you don't penetrate the armor, the blunt force trauma alone can stop a person in a non-rigid armor (no idea what armor the guy was wearing) or at least slow him down giving more people a chance to escape. As long as you are careful with your shot placement (not hitting innocents) there isn't a real solid reason to to try to defend yourself against this kind of attack - provided you are close enough to place the shots where you need them. One skilled marksman could have saved many of these people.

07-20-2012, 10:24 PM	#51
Quick_Nick Passed the Turing Test	Still better than Slate (who inadvertently confirmed some of this): http://www.theonion.com/articles/sad...ootings,28857/ ---------- Post added at 05:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 PM ---------- Regarding the armor/clothing: "The suspect was found in possession of a helmet, a gas mask, a tactical vest, throat and groin protectors and black tactical gloves, authorities said."

07-20-2012, 10:27 PM	#52
Keatah Orbinaut	Quote: Originally Posted by Yoda I'm sure they'll come up with some pathetic excusse about his rough upbringing or childhood or how he was bullied in school as an excuse for his actions. Defense Lawyers make me sick.... Sad thing is that aspects like you just said are involved in this. But, look, a rough upbringing (full of discipline and rules and expectations) does not generally result in this. It's the meek and neglected and wussy parents making a wuss junior, these are where the disturbed ones come from. Seen it in my hometown for sure. The frustration at not being able to be heard makes the perpetrator nuts.

07-20-2012, 10:51 PM	#54
Quick_Nick Passed the Turing Test	Weapons, armor, and psychopaths exist in real life first.

07-20-2012, 10:54 PM	#55
Screamer7 Orbinaut	Quote: Originally Posted by Quick_Nick Weapons, armor, and psychopaths exist in real life first. That is true.

07-20-2012, 11:10 PM	#56
Keatah Orbinaut	Quote: Originally Posted by Screamer7 And to get them on the right track can sometimes be very difficult. To get them on the right track.. That usually begins at home in the early years, does it not? Well, I blew up all sorts of stuff as a kid. You know high school chemistry experiments and mom's under-the-sink chemical supply house. But we never hurt so much as a bug. Maybe an ant walked into the spilled Drano from time to time though. In the 60's and 70's there wasn't much in the way of video games. But then soon enough the likes of atari and quake and doom came along.. But we all knew the difference between games/movie violence and real-life destruction. Apparently that's not the case here. A confused blur of real & virtual realities. Either way, the psychiatrists are gonna be all over this one.

07-20-2012, 11:18 PM	#57
Screamer7 Orbinaut	Yes Keetah, it begin in the early years. My parents brought me up well, my buttocks know about that!!!! And that is another thing.... Your parents. They play a big role in a youngster's life.

07-20-2012, 11:35 PM	#59
Screamer7 Orbinaut	I thought so.... Aurora - New York City's police commissioner says the gunman in the Colorado cinema rampage had painted his hair red and called himself the Joker - the villain from the Batman movies. http://www.news24.com/World/News/Cin...Joker-20120720 http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment...er-could-have/

07-21-2012, 01:08 AM	#60
Cras Spring of Life!	Quote: Originally Posted by Urwumpe Doesn't it disturb you, that we know the name of the killer, but not the names of the victims? I have found the coverage of this event by the news outlets to be lacking, to say the least.